Save the church! (kill the organs)

[Elizium23]

Is there a rule against using recorded music during mass? Wouldn’t a great recording like the above be more uplifting than a poorly played guitar?

Yes, there is. Yes, perhaps it would, but the point of liturgy is that it is the work of the people, and to that end, we employ human ministers in every capacity possible to make it happen. We could replace an altar server holding a book with a floor stand. We could replace a lector with a film projector giving a multimedia presentation on the Scriptures. We could replace the priest with a robot that has all the right moves and always follows rubrics. But the priest acts in persona Christi, and the other ministers bring a human element to the liturgy, so there is no reason to introduce unnecessary technology.

 

[dzheremi]

While I absolutely do not want to get involved in the argument between Elizium23 and ConstantineTG, I do feel that it would be useful to point out that while the organ is emblematic of Western Catholic tradition, the older Western tradition is unaccompanied chant. So it is not a disgrace or demotion of Western tradition (nor an adoption of Eastern tradition) to return to that practice. I personally have no dog in this fight, but you cannot listen to the old Western Catholic chant such as that of Spain (the “Mozarabic”, though the way that this term is usually understood is incorrect, as the musical form of the liturgy was stabilized at least a century prior to the Islamic invasions, so “Arab” is not really part why it sounds how it sounds) and think that it would be improved with an organ. I’m sorry, I just refuse to believe that. And it is against their tradition, anyway.

Antifonario Mozárabe de Silos: Lección II de Viernes Santo

^ This is Western Christian (doesn’t make sense to specify “Catholic” or “Orthodox” in this case; in fact, the EO in Spain use the traditional Mozarabic liturgy, just as the Catholics do in certain regions) tradition, far away from what the Franks and others were doing at a much later date (the first permanent organ installed in any European church was in Germany in 1361, about seven centuries after the above Mozarabic antiphonary was written down). Please do not forget its place in Western Christian history in favor of later developments.

 

[Elizium23]

So now embracing a distinct patrimony and tradition means we should throw off the established customs of the last 1300 years, ignore Church documents, even those derived from ecumenical councils, embrace primitivism, and do what every other rite is doing?

With all due respect to the Mozarabic Rite, it is a Rite with distinct patrimony and history, and just as distinct as the Byzantine is from the Roman Rite. Whether it came from East or West makes no difference. In the Roman Rite, the organ is to have pride of place, as instructed by Church documents. It will take more than the 50 destructive corrosive years after Vatican II to destroy the tradition of organ music in the Roman Rite.

 

[Byrnwiga]

Save the church! (kill the organs)

Of course I strenuously disagree with this. Gregorian chant is the preferred song of the Church. By its nature it is a cappella. But isn’t the organ to be afforded “pride of place” among the instruments? Should it not be retained and maintained in church buildings if only to put an exclamation mark into the liturgy at opportune times? Please, kill the guitars and tambourines and pianos and drums before you touch the organ.

I prefer to go to Masses that have organ music. :thumbsup: I’m normally the youngest person there (aside from infants). I absolutely love organ music and have hundreds of hours of it on CD.

I understand, of course, that some people will object to an organ poorly-played, and it is indeed true that the resulting sound is… “unholy”, for grave lack of a better word. In that case, an Extraordinary Form Low Mass is in order.

-Byrnwiga

 

[Byrnwiga]

Here’s a nice organ piece for everyone to enjoy: youtube.com/watch?v=RJbduqxMffo

I really love the symmetrical swell shades and pipe facade in the image.

-Byrnwiga

 

[dzheremi]

With all due respect to the Mozarabic Rite, it is a Rite with distinct patrimony and history, and just as distinct as the Byzantine is from the Roman Rite. Whether it came from East or West makes no difference.

I would think it does when you assert that the organ should be accepted in the Roman Church due to its traditional place in the Mass. I’m not even arguing with that, either, only trying to point that while that is a tradition, the earlier tradition of the Christian West is actually not to have any instrumental accompaniment.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I would say one enormous reason the organ often sounds so bad is because parishes commonly try to play sacro-pop on the instrument.

 

[ThePaladin]

I would say one enormous reason the organ often sounds so bad is because parishes commonly try to play sacro-pop on the instrument.

How would you define that?

 

[YoungTradCath]

How would you define that?

Define what?

 

[Cat]

I would say one enormous reason the organ often sounds so bad is because parishes commonly try to play sacro-pop on the instrument.

Another interesting term–sacro-pop. Sigh. Where do you get these?

Usually musicians who are playing one of the contemporary Catholic hymns (that are in the hymnals that are approved by the bishops) will go to the piano instead of using the organ. Most of these hymns were written for piano (or guitar) and sound better played on the proper instruments.

There are various techniques that organists can use to play contemporary hymns on the organ, but these are too advanced for me. I wouldn’t even dream of trying.

Frankly, I think when an organ sounds “bad,” it is due to a lack of skill on the part of the organist. And frankly, this comment worries me. I just started learning the organ a year ago, and I’m working on the service exam and hope to get to a point where I can play for congregational singing. But I know that I will not sound as “good” as the regular organist, and I will sound just plain awful compared to the skilled organist that is my teacher.

So should I just never play so that I won’t torture fellow Christians with my “badness?”

My point is–be careful about criticizing organists. There aren’t very many of them, and if you offend one, you may end up with piano and guitar for the rest of your sojourn at that particular parish. Yes, we should probably all develop a much thicker skin, but I can tell you right now that if I try to accompany singing on the organ, and someone tells me afterward that I sounded “bad,” I would probably cry for an hour and it would take a crew of kind people to talk me into ever playing again. (If my TEACHER told me I sounded bad, I would respect him and listen to his good advice to help me sound better.)

 

[pnewton]

but I also realize that CCM isn’t appropriate for the liturgy, nor is Haugen-Haas or OCP adequate for the Sacrifice of the Mass. It’s not what the Church wants.

I would say the evidence is that many priests and bishops disagree with your opinion, thus the existence of OCP.

 

[ThePaladin]

Define what?

Sacro-pop.

 

[ThePaladin]

Another interesting term–sacro-pop. Sigh. Where do you get these?

Usually musicians who are playing one of the contemporary Catholic hymns (that are in the hymnals that are approved by the bishops) will go to the piano instead of using the organ. Most of these hymns were written for piano (or guitar) and sound better played on the proper instruments.

There are various techniques that organists can use to play contemporary hymns on the organ, but these are too advanced for me. I wouldn’t even dream of trying.

Frankly, I think when an organ sounds “bad,” it is due to a lack of skill on the part of the organist. And frankly, this comment worries me. I just started learning the organ a year ago, and I’m working on the service exam and hope to get to a point where I can play for congregational singing. But I know that I will not sound as “good” as the regular organist, and I will sound just plain awful compared to the skilled organist that is my teacher.

So should I just never play so that I won’t torture fellow Christians with my “badness?”

My point is–be careful about criticizing organists. There aren’t very many of them, and if you offend one, you may end up with piano and guitar for the rest of your sojourn at that particular parish. Yes, we should probably all develop a much thicker skin, but I can tell you right now that if I try to accompany singing on the organ, and someone tells me afterward that I sounded “bad,” I would probably cry for an hour and it would take a crew of kind people to talk me into ever playing again. (If my TEACHER told me I sounded bad, I would respect him and listen to his good advice to help me sound better.)

I generally feel that criticizing music ministers on the quality of music produced is a poor, uncharitable thing to do. At my parish we have a gentleman who first began singing last September. Before that, he had never sang a note in his life. However, he felt inspired by the parish’s music ministry and since has dove face first into the thick of it. Just last week, he cantored his first Mass. Imagine my frustration when a parishober felt the need to notify my wife (the music director) about how flat he sang and about how poor the quality was.

If she had known how hard this gentleman had been working, if she had known that for a year straight he took voice lessons privately with my wife…if she had known that in one years time he had become one of the most dedicated members of that music ministry, she would have acted other wise.

You bring up a really good point, Cat. People need to understand that everyone has a beginning, and that even the experienced have bad days. Its moments like this that I really wonder if threads of this nature forgo greatfulness and charity in lieu of liturgical excellence.

 

[Elizium23]

I would say the evidence is that many priests and bishops disagree with your opinion, thus the existence of OCP.

Many priests and bishops and sisters remained silent about abortion and contraception from Roe v. Wade to this day. Many priests and bishops will not enforce Canon 915. Is that also what the Church wants?

The plain fact of the matter is that the documents from the Ecumenical Council Vatican II as well as all the revisions of the General Instructions on the Roman Missal have made clear the desires of the Church for her music, and have been very loosely interpreted or plain ignored by these “many priests and bishops”. I will wager you that in many places it was uninformed laity who drove this music into parishes, because folks Masses are “feel good” occasions that leave you with a superficial charge of enjoyment; the hippie and rock ‘n’ roll culture invaded our sanctuaries and there was little we could do to stop it or the Pill from taking over Catholicism.

Now with 50 years of hindsight the Vatican Council is truly taking shape and the “reform of the reform” has begun. People are actually reading these documents rather than invoking some nebulous “Spirit” of the Council. My parish is presenting a series on Vatican II documents for the Year of Faith. I would suggest that everyone read these documents closely, because they are what truly reveal the mind of the Church, not renegade clergy.

 

[pnewton]

Many priests and bishops and sisters remained silent about abortion and contraception from Roe v. Wade to this day. Many priests and bishops will not enforce Canon 915. Is that also what the Church wants?

No way! You didn’t just comapare music decisions to abortion!?!

I do not think there is anyway you can possible know any of these allegations you made, so, I will just shake my head and walk away.

 

[Elizium23]

Well, there are ways in which they are similar. It is clear that music decisions are a popularity contest. Certainly pastors are concerned about bodies filling their pews. The more bodies in pews, the more souls saved, the more donations come in, the more a community thrives. Now you’re a priest in the 1980s, and all your neighbors have folk Masses, and meanwhile you’re assiduously following the Church documents with chanted propers and organ music. Your pews are empty. What do you do? Throw out those Church documents, because they are a stumbling block to you. It is not what you want to do, but you do what you have to in order to keep your pews full.

And the same logic applied to the culture of death. High percentages of Catholics found abortion and contraception acceptable, and a priest who remained silent on those matters from the pulpit was more likely to keep his congregation from thinning out. It is simply easier to follow the path of least resistance rather than portray our baptism as taking up our cross.

In no way am I saying that bad music is a crime against God. It is certainly not the same in degree or even kind as grave sin. I am just saying there are behavioral similarities that can be drawn to illustrate how bad music gained a stranglehold on our poor Church in those bad decades. My parish is throwing OCP and GIA out the window. Will you follow?

 

[Sky_Pilot]

This was one of the most ridiculous articles I have ever read!

If the author really thinks the reason her children will grow not going to church is because of organ music, then… well, I think she is ignoring many other factors.

The whole article reminds me of an excuse in search of a reason.

:thumbsup:Bingo!!!

 

[ThePaladin]

Well, there are ways in which they are similar. It is clear that music decisions are a popularity contest. Certainly pastors are concerned about bodies filling their pews. The more bodies in pews, the more souls saved, the more donations come in, the more a community thrives. Now you’re a priest in the 1980s, and all your neighbors have folk Masses, and meanwhile you’re assiduously following the Church documents with chanted propers and organ music. Your pews are empty. What do you do? Throw out those Church documents, because they are a stumbling block to you. It is not what you want to do, but you do what you have to in order to keep your pews full.

And the same logic applied to the culture of death. High percentages of Catholics found abortion and contraception acceptable, and a priest who remained silent on those matters from the pulpit was more likely to keep his congregation from thinning out. It is simply easier to follow the path of least resistance rather than portray our baptism as taking up our cross.

In no way am I saying that bad music is a crime against God. It is certainly not the same in degree or even kind as grave sin. I am just saying there are behavioral similarities that can be drawn to illustrate how bad music gained a stranglehold on our poor Church in those bad decades. My parish is throwing OCP and GIA out the window. Will you follow?

No.

I think the issue here is making the assumption that contemporary Catholic music never evolved past the 1980s. That Haugen and Haas happened and somehow the music got timelocked circa 83. That simply isn’t the case. So the bad music may have experienced growing up with folk masses and the like may not be the norm for today. I don’t know how to articulate this well, and perhaps I am off the mark, but I really cant see how contemporary=bad.

 

[grasscutter]

Because every time you pop your head into a thread about the Latin Church, it is invariably to say something like “The East does it THIS way! Ain’t it great?” I’m also a great supporter of the Eastern Churches, but I get extremely tired of this kind of relentless cheerleading when it is wholly inappropriate and off-topic, such as in a thread on the organ.

In the same way that the Eastern Churches suffered from ghettoization and Latinizations in the early part of Uniate history, perhaps the lesson can be learned by us all that homogenization of liturgy is not appropriate when distinct patrimonies are a source of pride for members of those Rites, and that we should not boast or feel superior because of Earthly things like what instruments are used in our liturgies.

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 9:46-48[/BIBLEDRB]

Out of Christian charity for the person who posted it and the rest of us who might feel awkward at what they perceive as unnecessary unkindness, I wonder if you (in the future) could send a sentiment like this in a PM instead of putting it up in full view?

 

[Elizium23]

Out of Christian charity for the person who posted it and the rest of us who might feel awkward at what they perceive as unnecessary unkindness, I wonder if you (in the future) could send a sentiment like this in a PM instead of putting it up in full view?

Yes, it was intemperate of me to respond with this in public. I got bent out of shape as the thread starter and as someone who is undergoing a difficult trial in my personal life. I apologize for the rude and argumentative tone I have used in the past week or so.