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geezerbob
Guest
This thread isn’t about politics. It’s about whether pro-abortion politicians should be able to retain their memberships. Abortion is a moral issue first. The political aspects of it are secondary.
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johnlal
Guest
If it was just about morality, and not about politics, I would expect to see more KofC more vocal in opposition to the war, or Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay torture. It just so happens that the Knight’s sense of morality comes down on American political divides. The Knights have been vocal against abortion and homosexuality while being quiet about war and torture. It’s no coincidence that Supreme Knight was a former official in the Reagan Administration.
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Sheeniac
Guest
Abortion is one of the subjects of which a Catholic must be in agreement with the Church. Many/most subjects (the WOT, GitMo “torture”, etc) are not - there is room for dissent.
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francesco920
Guest
You’re comparing apples and oranges.
War itself is not always an intrinsically evil act…it can be legitimately used for self-defense. I don’t really agree with those who support the current war, but no Catholic is bound by the Church to believe that the Iraq War is contrary to the Catholic faith. Support for the Iraq war does not result in broken communion with the Church. On the other hand, abortion always is gravely evil, as are homosexual actions and the mocking of marriage. No Catholic may support any of these and be in full communion with the Church. It is not possible.
Another point that I wish to make is this: the current war, whether one supports it or not, is aimed at those who have committed crimes such as terrorism or murder; abortion, however, is always aimed at those who are completely and totally innocent and defenseless. It is therefore, in my opinion, absurd to compare the two.
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Walt_Oliver
Guest
Please stay on the topic brought up in the original post, which is whether the K of C should oust pro-abortion politicians. If you want to discuss wider issues, either start a new thread in the appropriate forum or join a discussion already in progress. Thanks for your cooperation.
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johnlal
Guest
Anybody who agrees with raping women and children, or torturing people, is a monster. If you have seen the pictures from Abu Ghraib, how in the world can you say that there is “room for dissent”?
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johnlal
Guest
Sorry to get off-topic.
In the original post, it is asked whether the K of C should oust pro-abortion politicians.
My response is that the K of C should not be targeting politicians at all. If they wish to oust all members who are pro choice, that is their right-- as these people are not following the precepts of the church. But to specifically target “politicians” shows not only the desire for ideological purity within the ranks, but to affect civil politics. The K of C should not be using it’s membership to affect partisan politics (and I have seen them do it time and time again).
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thomasf
Guest
Actually the original post was about the 16 KofC members from Mass that didn’t vote to give the people of Mass the ability to decide for themselves if gay marriage should be allowed in their state. The poster compared the stance the KofC took against allowing pro-choice speakers at their convention to the lack of action with these 16 members. It’s not about targeting politics. It’s about being a good catholic and being inline with the teachings of the church. Which the KofC has the right to do, being a catholic based institution.
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johnlal
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Who happen to be politicians
In their capacity as civil political officials
And the poster wants to kick these politicians out because of the way they voted in their capacity as public officials. The reaction to this vote would either be in retaliation or in attempts to influence their action in the future, so that, perhaps they would “give the people of Mass the ability to decide for themselves if gay marriage should be allowed in their state.”
But it’s not about politics, is it?
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geezerbob
Guest
The K of C can, and possibly should, oust any member who is not a practical Catholic according to their definition. This could possibly include a member who, as an example, is conspicuous by his regular absence from Sunday mass. The K of C does not conduct inquisitions to determine if each and every member lives in full compliance with all Church teachings, nor should it. For any action to be taken, the rejection of Church teaching would have to be public, as it was in the case of the Massachusetts politicians.
As to the charges of political activism by the Knights, there are numerous areas where moral and religious teaching and secular law overlap. As a Knight, as a Catholic, and as an active participant in all elections, I choose to follow the teachings of the Church first. If that spills over into influencing who I will vote for (or against) in an election, that’s the way it is and, in my opinion, the way it should be. The day the Knights quit being pro-life is the day I will resign. In the meantime, I’m all for giving the boot to any member, politician or not, who publicly defies Church teaching on abortion or any other major issue.
As to the charges of political activism by the Knights, there are numerous areas where moral and religious teaching and secular law overlap. As a Knight, as a Catholic, and as an active participant in all elections, I choose to follow the teachings of the Church first. If that spills over into influencing who I will vote for (or against) in an election, that’s the way it is and, in my opinion, the way it should be. The day the Knights quit being pro-life is the day I will resign. In the meantime, I’m all for giving the boot to any member, politician or not, who publicly defies Church teaching on abortion or any other major issue.
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johnlal
Guest
Then the Knights need to stop telling their members that they do not engage in partisan politics. It’s just dishonest.
And if they’re going to act like a political action committee, they probably need to review their tax status.
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Sheeniac
Guest
It’s not partisan. Abortion crosses party lines.
They aren’t acting like a PAC in what they are doing. Their tax status is in no way endangered according to IRS rules (I’ve dealt with 501 status before.)
I’m sure there may be legitimate arguments against what they are doing, but certainly the above statements are baseless.
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pprimeau1976
Guest
What good would ousting a pro-choice plumber do as opposed to ousting a pro-choice politician? Pro-choice politicians have a direct affect on public policy and many of these politicians go so far as to make abortion more readily available and even advocate public funding of abortions. Their opinions along with their choice of carreers as public policy makers have a direct effect on a the unjust killing of millions of children.
The pro-choice plumber has little effect other than his vote, which is private, anyway.
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johnlal
Guest
And so the idea is for the Knights to influence public policy by disciplining public policy makers. And yet so many people here will still argue that the Knights are not engaged in political activity.
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pprimeau1976
Guest
Being selective as to who can be a member of an organization is not a political activity. It sends a message that it is not acceptable to advance the right to commit infanticide. It’s not the K of C’s fault that a simple cut and dry moral issue as to when personhood begins and ends has become political. Should they abandon all moral issues that become political?
Furthermore, the K of C removing members that publicly express opinions that are contrary to Catholic teaching is hardly what I consider to be “engaging” in political activity.
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johnlal
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You misunderstood my post. I was responding to a post that suggested that politicians should be ousted for their positions but that plumbers should not. His point was that politicians can affect public policy whereas politicians cannot.
I agree that the K of C can and should remove members who express opinions contrary to the Catholic teaching. However, if they strategically remove some members in an attempt to influence how votes are cast in civil government, they are participating in political activity. Why is that so hard to admit?
Abortion? A “cut and dry” issue? That’s wishful thinking. It is cut and dry for us Catholics, because we have doctrine that tell us it’s wrong. However, the issue of abortion, and the larger issue of when life begins, has been hotly debated for centuries. It is a huge political issue that figures prominently in every national election. I don’t think there will be a global consensus to this issue in our lifetimes.
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geezerbob
Guest
Who but a politician makes public statements opposed to Church teaching? Certainly not a plumber. If the removal of these politicians from the K of C has an effect on public policy, it is secondary, not primary, and will have been brought on by their public, not private, opposition to Catholic doctrine.
Regardless of how the general public feels about abortion, it is our duty as Catholics and Knights to oppose it and those elected officials who support it on moral, not political grounds. The fact that they overlap in some areas does not change a thing nor does it mean that the Knights would be taking the action for political rather than moral reasons. It seems to be a bit of a stretch to say so.
Regardless of how the general public feels about abortion, it is our duty as Catholics and Knights to oppose it and those elected officials who support it on moral, not political grounds. The fact that they overlap in some areas does not change a thing nor does it mean that the Knights would be taking the action for political rather than moral reasons. It seems to be a bit of a stretch to say so.
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pprimeau1976
Guest
It’s hard to admit because what you claim is not realistic nor can it ever be proven to be true. Do you really think that voters care whether or not someone is kicked out of the KofC? Thy are furthest from my mind when I go to the voting booth. And how can you proove that the KofC are kicking people out in order to influence votes?
The issue of abortion has been hotly debated for centuries? I know that the issue of when life begins has been debated, but abortion itself? I don’t think so.
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johnlal
Guest
You’re blowing smoke. Instead of going through all of those semantic acrobatics why can’t the Knights be honest and up front about being a political organization?
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geezerbob
Guest
I’m blowing smoke??? What’s that rising from your ears?
As someone else asked, where’s your proof that the Knights are trying to influence elections on anything other than moral grounds? You made the claim, so the onus is on you. And, how does ousting a member have any effect on an election? Not all voters are Catholic, doncha know.
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