Saved by Faith alone?

[spedteacherita]

Sorry, but taking a random quote out of context won’t cut it. Protestant historians will fabricate anything to create an illusion of history that’s not there.

I’ve been following this line of conversation with interest. Matt, can you provide a reference for your statement here?

Thanks!

Rita

 

[Starwarsfan2]

• On Luther creating the Protestant Church and sola fide (for starters):

Protestant Reformation (1521–1610)[edit]
Main articles: Protestant Reformation and Protestantism
**In the early 16th century, movements were begun by two theologians, Martin Luther and Huldrych Zwingli, **that aimed to reform the Church; these reformers are distinguished from previous ones in that they considered the root of corruptions to be doctrinal (rather than simply a matter of moral weakness or lack of ecclesiastical discipline) and thus **they aimed to change contemporary doctrines to accord with what they perceived to be the “true gospel.” **The word Protestant is derived from the Latin protestatio meaning declaration which refers to the letter of protestation by Lutheran princes against the decision of the Diet of Speyer in 1529, which reaffirmed the edict of the Diet of Worms against the Reformation.[76]

**The beginning of the Protestant Reformation is generally identified with Martin Luther and the posting of the 95 Theses on the castle church in Wittenberg, Germany. **Early protest was against corruptions such as simony, episcopal vacancies, and the sale of indulgences. **The Protestant position, however, would come to incorporate doctrinal changes such as sola scriptura and sola fide. **

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology_of_Martin_Luther

Luther asserted that Christians receive that righteousness entirely from outside themselves; that righteousness not only comes from Christ, it actually is the righteousness of Christ, imputed to us (rather than infused into us) through faith. “That is why faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law,” said Luther. “Faith is that which brings the Holy Spirit through the merits of Christ”.[3] Thus faith, for Luther, is a gift from God, and ". . .a living, bold trust in God’s grace, so certain of God’s favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide

**Historic Protestantism (both Lutheran and Reformed) has held to sola-fide justification in opposition to Roman Catholicism especially, but also in opposition to significant aspects of Eastern Orthodoxy. **Protestants exclude all human works (except the works of Jesus Christ, which form the basis of justification) from the legal verdict (or pardon) of justification. In the General Council of Trent the Catholic Church stated in canon XIV on justification that “If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema (excommunicated).” Thus, “faith alone” is foundational to Protestantism, and distinguishes it from other Christian denominations. According to Martin Luther, justification by faith alone is the article on which the church stands or falls.

From 1510 to 1520, Luther lectured on the Psalms and the books of Hebrews, Romans, and Galatians. As he studied these portions of the Bible, he came to view the use of terms such as penance and righteousness by the Roman Catholic Church in new ways. (See Romans 4:1-5, Galatians 3:1-7, and Genesis 15:6.) He became convinced that the church was corrupt in its ways and had lost sight of what he saw as several of the central truths of Christianity, the most important of which, for Luther, was the doctrine of justification—God’s act of declaring a sinner righteous—by faith alone through God’s grace. He began to teach that salvation or redemption is a gift of God’s grace, attainable only through faith in Jesus.[1]

Neither quote speaks of creating new doctrine , just of the belief the sola fide is apostolic doctrine , which it is but that’s beside my point .

 

[Starwarsfan2]

-On the authoritative magisterium at the beginning of Christianity:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Linus

Linus (died c. AD 76) was, according to several early sources, the second Bishop of Rome, and is listed by the Roman Catholic church as the second pope.

The earliest witness to Linus’s status as bishop was** Irenaeus, who in about the year 180 wrote, "The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate.
**

Acts 11:26

And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people.** And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
**

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch

Ignatius of Antioch (35 AD - 108 AD)was an Apostolic Father, the third bishop of Antioch[2][3] and a student of John the Apostle. En route to Rome, where he met his martyrdom by being fed to wild beasts, he wrote a series of letters which have been preserved as an example of very early Christian theology. Important topics addressed in these letters include ecclesiology, the sacraments, and the role of bishops.

Ignatius’s letters:

earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-roberts.html

CHAPTER VIII.–LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

CHAPTER IX.–HONOUR THE BISHOP.

Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness[of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop.** He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does[in reality] serve the devil.** Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for ye are worthy. Ye have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ[shall refresh] you. Ye have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while ye endure all things, ye shall attain unto Him.

earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-roberts.html

CHAPTER III.–AVOID SCHISMATICS.

Keep yourselves from those evil plants which Jesus Christ does not tend, because they are not the planting of the Father. Not that I have found any division among you, but exceeding purity. For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. **If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. **If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion [of Christ.].

CHAPTER IV.–HAVE BUT ONE EUCHARIST, ETC.

Take ye heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth] the unity of His blood; one altar; as there is one bishop, along with the presbytery and deacons, my fellow-servants: that so, whatsoever ye do, ye may do it according to [the will of] God.

You do realize I was questioning only the RC interpretation of the magisterium, not the idea of a magisterium itself , sorry for not making that clear

 

[Peter_J]

No Lutheran , Calvinist , Zwinglian , Anglican , Westlyan , or Anabaptist believes that nonsense and " Protestant " historians reject it as well , for that reason and more Jimmy Akin I don’t regard as very credible .

What did he say?

 

[ptisme]

We are saved by Grace Alone: Eph 2:8-9
Through Faith: John 3: 16
Our Faith is demonstrated by good Works: James 2:17

 

[mattp0625]

But his quotes were not out of context , nor were they intended to " create " apostolic succession wich many Lutherans already have , the only people who support succession from heretics are fringe groups such as Fundamentalists , not the Churches of the Reformation , so no , "Protestants " historians are NOT creating illusions as you stated before , it is outright slander for you to have stared so

Who appointed Luther to succeed the apostles? Who appointed him to create new doctrine?

Did he live in Israel or Antioch? Did he meet the apostles? Did he meet the next generation of disciples such as Ignatius of Antioch? Was he handed the office of the episcopate from Peter or Linus or Clement? No, he was not even a bishop.

It is a total illusion. Luther appointed himself, created his own church, his own canon, and his own doctrine 1,500 years after it was established.

It is also an illusion to take a few practices of Waldo or Chrysostom and use them to legitimize new Protestant doctrines.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Who appointed Luther to succeed the apostles? Who appointed him to create new doctrine?

It is a total illusion.

So is taking a few practices of Waldo or Chrysostom and using them to legitimize new Protestant doctrines.

Lutheran AS uses the historic episcopate , the laying on of lands , priests ordained by bishops etc having kept these practices , the only illusion here is the one you bring yourself

 

[mattp0625]

Lutheran AS uses the historic episcopate , the laying on of lands , priests ordained by bishops etc having kept these practices , the only illusion here is the one you bring yourself

I will believe you when you can tell me who appointed Luther and gave him authority to do all these things.

Or, if you can show me documentation showing Luther was appointed by the apostles, or the successor of the apostles.

Any priest with the backing of the Church can lay hands to do an anointing. This does not give them authority to create a new canon, doctrine, or a new church. Not to mention he was excommunicated.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

I will believe you when you can tell me who appointed Luther and gave him authority to do all these things.

Or, if you can show me documentation showing Luther was appointed by the apostles, or the successor of the apostles.

Any priest can lay hands to do an anointing. This does not give them authority to create a new canon, doctrine, or a new church.

I was referring to the European churches who kept AS with the bishops who became Lutheran

 

[mattp0625]

I was referring to the European churches who kept AS with the bishops who became Lutheran

Which bishop did Luther report to after he started his own church. And, who gave this bishop authority to create new doctrine or a new church?

Remember - Ignatius of Antioch from the first century:

Anything done apart from the bishop…

Schismatics will not inherit the kingdom…

Remember Irenaeus from the second century:

The office of the episcopate was handed from the apostles to Linus.

I’ll await your documentation showing this appointment by the bishop, the authority to start a new church, and how it is all linked back through appointments to original apostles of Christ.

Note - the bishops excommunicated Luther.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Which bishop did Luther report to after he started his own church. And, who gave this bishop authority to create new doctrine or a new church?

Remember - Ignatius of Antioch from the first century:

Anything done apart from the bishop…

Schismatics will not inherit the kingdom…

Remember Irenaeus from the second century:

The office of the episcopate was handed from the apostles to Linus.

I’ll await your documentation showing this appointment by the bishop, the authority to start a new church, and how it is all linked back through appointments to original apostles of Christ.

I disagree about the starting a new church thing , however were not talking about that ( seriously) but about AS , the European churches have AS because of the many of of bishops in Scandanavia became Lutherans , and continued the line , one of the bishops was Hans Rev with the support of Olav Engelbrektsson Archbishop of Norway, another bishop was Gjeble Pedersson who was ordained in 1537 , and many more

 

[Starwarsfan2]

bishop of Vasteras Petrie Magni ordained Lutheran Reformer Laurentius Petri as a bishop sept 22 1531

 

[mattp0625]

I disagree about the starting a new church thing , however were not talking about that ( seriously) but about AS , the European churches have AS because of the many of of bishops in Scandanavia became Lutherans , and continued the line , one of the bishops was Hans Rev with the support of Olav Engelbrektsson Archbishop of Norway, another bishop was Gjeble Pedersson who was ordained in 1537 , and many more

This is really creative stuff. Olav Engelbrektsson was appointed to start a new church and create new doctrine? Wow. Olav of Norway.

Who gave Olav of Norway the office of the episcopate? Where is his apostolic succession by appointment from Peter, Linus, Clement, etc. Where did he give Luther authority that wasn’t his to give?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olav_Engelbrektsson

Olav Engelbrektsson[1] ( c. 1480, Trondenes, Norway – 7 February 1538, Lierre, Duchy of Brabant, Habsburg Netherlands ) was the 28th Archbishop of Norway from 1523 to 1537, the Regent of Norway from 1533 to 1537, a member and later president of the Riksråd (Council of the Realm), and a member of the Norwegian nobility. He was the last Roman Catholic to be the Archbishop of Norway before he fled to exile in 1537.

After his death, Olav Engelbrektsson was given a “bad reputation as an untrustworthy and scheming prelate” dårlig ettermæle som en upålitelig og intrigant prelat ] by the Protestant historians.[2] His reputation did not improve after 1814, when Norway made its declaration of independence from Sweden, because he was still blamed for promoting the Catholic Church at the expense of Norwegian independence.[3] But the later historians – Absalon Taranger in 1917, Sverre Steen in 1935 and Lars Hamre in 1998 – have rehabilitated most of his reputation with detailed studies and labeled most of the accusations as unfair.

For the next twelve years until 1536, Olav Engelbrektsson was virtually the leader of Norway, serving as the defender of the Catholic faith against the hordes of the Reformation, while his cousin, Admiral Kristoffer Trondson handled the military defenses for him.[16] As the Archbishop, Olav built the Steinvikholm Castle outside Trondheim.

But the Catholic Church was not the only concern of the Archbishop. He also constantly tried to break Norway away from the bonds that bound her to Denmark but he constantly failed. His failures paved the way for the submission of Norway to the Danish crown, marking the end of both Norwegian independence and Catholicism.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

The Lutheran churches in Sweden , Finland , Denmark , Estonia , Norway , Lithania, Iceland , and the U.K. Have preserved AS

 

[Starwarsfan2]

This is really creative stuff. Olav Engelbrektsson was appointed to start a new church and create new doctrine? Wow. Folks - your new successor to the apostles of Christ - Olav of Norway.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olav_Engelbrektsson

Olav Engelbrektsson[1] ( c. 1480, Trondenes, Norway – 7 February 1538, Lierre, Duchy of Brabant, Habsburg Netherlands ) was the 28th Archbishop of Norway from 1523 to 1537, the Regent of Norway from 1533 to 1537, a member and later president of the Riksråd (Council of the Realm), and a member of the Norwegian nobility. He was the last Roman Catholic to be the Archbishop of Norway before he fled to exile in 1537.

After his death, Olav Engelbrektsson was given a “bad reputation as an untrustworthy and scheming prelate” dårlig ettermæle som en upålitelig og intrigant prelat ] by the Protestant historians.[2] His reputation did not improve after 1814, when Norway made its declaration of independence from Sweden, because he was still blamed for promoting the Catholic Church at the expense of Norwegian independence.[3] But the later historians – Absalon Taranger in 1917, Sverre Steen in 1935 and Lars Hamre in 1998 – have rehabilitated most of his reputation with detailed studies and labeled most of the accusations as unfair.

For the next twelve years until 1536, Olav Engelbrektsson was virtually the leader of Norway, serving as the defender of the Catholic faith against the hordes of the Reformation, while his cousin, Admiral Kristoffer Trondson handled the military defenses for him.[16] As the Archbishop, Olav built the Steinvikholm Castle outside Trondheim.

But the Catholic Church was not the only concern of the Archbishop. He also constantly tried to break Norway away from the bonds that bound her to Denmark but he constantly failed. His failures paved the way for the submission of Norway to the Danish crown, marking the end of both Norwegian independence and Catholicism.

I will state again the Reformers never created new doctrine BUT AS is wat we’re arguing about NOT the " creating new doctrine " subject is Is Lutheranism a church , the other subject may be debated elsewhere

 

[mattp0625]

I will state again the Reformers never created new doctrine BUT AS is wat we’re arguing about NOT the " creating new doctrine " subject is Is Lutheranism a church , the other subject may be debated elsewhere

We proved that Luther did indeed create a new doctrine. See the extensive documentation above.

The office of the episcopate came to Luther from Linus by way of Norway? OK.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

We proved that Luther did indeed create a new doctrine. See the extensive documentation above.

The office of the episcopate came to Luther from Linus by way of Norway? OK.

Your twisting what I said , Lutherans have AS because bishops became Lutheran and ordained Lutheran bishops in AS

 

[mattp0625]

Your twisting what I said , Lutherans have AS because bishops became Lutheran and ordained Lutheran bishops in AS

SO a bishop can create a schism, which he has no authority to do, and still has apostolic succession by way of a bishop in Norway and Luther?

Even though Luther was excommunicated??

Sorry, not buying it. Creative though, I’l give you that.

I don’t even see any connection to Luther, let alone any appointments showing succession:

Sweden was able to pull out of the Kalmar Union in 1523, thus creating Denmark–Norway under the rule of a king in Copenhagen. Frederick I of Denmark favoured Martin Luther’s Reformation, but it was not popular in Norway, where the Church was the one national institution and the country was too poor for the clergy to be very corrupt. Initially, Frederick agreed not to try to introduce Protestantism to Norway but in 1529 he changed his mind. Norwegian resistance was led by Olav Engelbrektsson, Archbishop of Trondheim, who invited the old king Christian II back from his exile in Holland. Christian returned but was ambushed and spent the rest of his life in prison. Then Frederick died and a three-way war of succession broke out between the supporters of his eldest son Christian (III), his younger Catholic brother Hans and the followers of Christian II. Olaf Engelbrektsson again tried to lead a Catholic Norwegian resistance movement but he found little support. Christian III triumphed and sent him into exile and in 1536 Christian demoted Norway from a kingdom to a mere Danish province. The Reformation wasimposed in 1537, strengthening the king’s power. All church valuables were sent to Copenhagen and the forty percent of the land which was owned by the church came under the control of the king. Danish was introduced as a written language, although Norwegian remained distinct dialects. Professional administration was now needed and power shifted from the provincial nobility to the royal administration: district stipendiary magistrates were appointed as judges and the sheriffs became employees of the crown rather than of the local nobility. In 1572 a governor-general was appointed for Norway with a seat at Akershus Fortress in Oslo. From the 1620s professional military officers were employed.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

SO a bishop can create a schism, which he has no authority to do, and still has apostolic succession by way of a bishop in Norway and Luther?

Even though Luther was excommunicated??

Sorry, not buying it. Creative though, I’l give you that.

I don’t even see any connection to Luther, let alone any appointments showing succession:

Sweden was able to pull out of the Kalmar Union in 1523, thus creating Denmark–Norway under the rule of a king in Copenhagen. Frederick I of Denmark favoured Martin Luther’s Reformation, but it was not popular in Norway, where the Church was the one national institution and the country was too poor for the clergy to be very corrupt. Initially, Frederick agreed not to try to introduce Protestantism to Norway but in 1529 he changed his mind. Norwegian resistance was led by Olav Engelbrektsson, Archbishop of Trondheim, who invited the old king Christian II back from his exile in Holland. Christian returned but was ambushed and spent the rest of his life in prison. Then Frederick died and a three-way war of succession broke out between the supporters of his eldest son Christian (III), his younger Catholic brother Hans and the followers of Christian II. Olaf Engelbrektsson again tried to lead a Catholic Norwegian resistance movement but he found little support. Christian III triumphed and sent him into exile and in 1536 Christian demoted Norway from a kingdom to a mere Danish province. The Reformation wasimposed in 1537, strengthening the king’s power. All church valuables were sent to Copenhagen and the forty percent of the land which was owned by the church came under the control of the king. Danish was introduced as a written language, although Norwegian remained distinct dialects. Professional administration was now needed and power shifted from the provincial nobility to the royal administration: district stipendiary magistrates were appointed as judges and the sheriffs became employees of the crown rather than of the local nobility. In 1572 a governor-general was appointed for Norway with a seat at Akershus Fortress in Oslo. From the 1620s professional military officers were employed.

I didn’t say Luther had AS , I said Lutheran bishops did , and yes Olaf opposed the Reformation , but some of the bishops he had supported did , as I stated earlier

 

[mattp0625]

I didn’t say Luther had AS , I said Lutheran bishops did , and yes Olaf opposed the Reformation , but some of the bishops he had supported did , as I stated earlier

OK, so.

Olav did not support the reformation.

Some of the bishops under him did.

The Protestant Reformation was started by Luther (documented above).

SO because some bishops may have joined Luther, which is yet to be proven, there is legitimate apostolic succession? Despite the fact that they would have formed a schism (if this is even accurate)?

That’s almost as bad as the Baptists’s story…

Just so you know, while a bishop has the backing of the office of the episcopate and authority to ordain priests and to concencrate Eucharist, he does NOT have authority to create doctrine or to create a church - especially in schism.