Saved by Faith alone?

[mattp0625]

As for Lutherans (I hope you don’t mind my using a Lutheran document, as opposed to Wikipedia):

The bolded section makes clear that your charge that the Lutheran concept, practice, and understanding of AS is similar to that of the Baptist practice you present, is blatantly false.
Please do us the courtesy of asking us what we believe, teach, and confess, instead of trying to tell us. Our beliefs are clearly laid out in our confessions, leaving Wikipedia wholly and completely unnecessary.
Jon

Sorry, I but I cannot ignore the documented history as much as you would like to do so.

Additionally, I do not appreciate a man (Luther) who commissioned depictions of people lowering their trousers and farting at the pope and also called the RCC the devil.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Sorry, I but I cannot ignore the documented history as much as you would like to do so.

Additionally, I do not appreciate a man (Luther) who commissioned depictions of people lowering their trousers and farting at the pope.

There is no documentation of Lutherans holding ANYTHING simular to Baptist sucssesionism, no matter how much you wish it to be otherwise

 

[mattp0625]

There is no documentation of Lutherans holding ANYTHING simular to Baptist sucssesionism

It’s a similar system of fabrications

 

[Starwarsfan2]

It’s a similar system of fabrications

Except it’s nowhere near similar, the idea that there similar THAT is the fabrication

 

[Reuben_J]

Which bishop did Luther report to after he started his own church. And, who gave this bishop authority to create new doctrine or a new church?

Remember - Ignatius of Antioch from the first century:

Anything done apart from the bishop…

Schismatics will not inherit the kingdom…

Remember Irenaeus from the second century:

The office of the episcopate was handed from the apostles to Linus.

I’ll await your documentation showing this appointment by the bishop, the authority to start a new church, and how it is all linked back through appointments to original apostles of Christ.

Note - the bishops excommunicated Luther.

Amazing what Christians did and how they fractured the body of Christ, the very thing Jesus wanted them not to do and that they should be one.

 

[mattp0625]

Except it’s nowhere near similar, the idea that there similar THAT is the fabrication

Apostolic succession by way of some bishops in Norway who supposedly broke from their archbishop? (See Ignatius of Antioch)

Peter to Linus (see Irenaeus of Lyons) to bishops in Norway. OK

 

[guanophore]

A few examples:

Baptist claim apostolic succession through Cathars and Waldo

Lutherans claiming apostolic succession through similar methods

The trail of blood committed by the Catholic Church

The Catholic Church started in the 4th century via Constantine

The bible was randomly collected instead of the Catholic Church defining criteria for inspiration, making the decisions on inspiration, and serving as the bible’s custodian

Luther and Calvin and Wesley (maybe Wycliffe) didn’t originate Protestant doctrine

There was not an authoritative magisterium since the beginning of Christianity

Matt, you seem intent upon creating a conflict, and directly thwarting the goals of the OP, who specifically states he is just looking for references here.

 

[Peter_J]

I apologize for getting us so far off topic

I’ve seen worse.

Btw I notice your post count is 888. Mine was 12345 earlier today, so I felt a duty to stop posting for a bit (especially since it will probably never be 123456) but of course eventually I posted again and changed it. I guess I should have posted something about my luggage (no offense, Starwarsfan).

 

[guanophore]

By this logic, the Catholic phrase, “faith and works” does not work either. Jon

I agree! I like "faith that works " a lot better.

 

[Reuben_J]

Apostolic succession by way of some bishops in Norway who supposedly broke from their archbishop? (See Ignatius of Antioch)

Peter to Linus (see Irenaeus of Lyons) to bishops in Norway. OK

Never believe any Protestant denominations have apostolic succession. Been saying that all my life here. Only stop saying it because it can be very embarrassing to hear them explaining how they get it. No truth thinking Christians would agree that it is apostolic succession in a strict sense of apostolic succession.

Frankly I have not heard this before but now I am hearing it, I can say it is utterly funny. I guess the less said about this the better. Let’s talk about something we have in common with the Lutherans, like believing that Jesus is our Savior.

 

[guanophore]

-On the authoritative magisterium at the beginning of Christianity:
( a lot of interesting but off topic material)

Seriously Matt, this is all unrelated to the thread topic. If you want to pick a fight about these issues, why not start your own thread?

 

[Starwarsfan2]

I do not wish to discuss or argue!!!!

I just want to see the passage(s) that are used for saved by faith.

THANKS!

Among other verses here is a sample of the many verses that support sola fide
Gen 15:6
Is 55:11
Matt 7:22-23
Luke 5:20
Luke 18:10-14
Eph 2:8-9
Luke 23:40-43
John 3:16
John 3:18
John 5:24
John 6:40
John 6:47
Acts 10:43
Rom1:17-18
Acts 16:31
John 14:6
Acts 26:18
Rom 6:23
Rom 4:5
Rom 11:6
Rom10:9
Rom14:23
Gal 2:16
Gal 2:21
Gal 3:1-3, 9-14, 21-25
Phil 3:9
Gal3:8
1 Tim 1:16
James 2:10

Hope that helps , Starwars

 

[JonNC]

So create your own canon. You have the authority, right?

Where did I say I created my own canon? You have the authority to put words in my mouth, right?

 

[pablope]

None of these are ecumenical councils. They were local synods, not binding on the whole Church.

So, then what these local synods did, deliberate, recommend to the bishops and the church…is a total waste of time and effort…since these were just local synods…

Even during his life, contemporaries such as Cardinal Cajetan claimed that the DC books were not canon, citing St Jerome.

 

[JonNC]

I agree! I like "faith that works " a lot better.

St. Paul provides the words that directs our views of justification together;
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity. "

Jon

 

[JonNC]

So, then what these local synods did, deliberate, recommend to the bishops and the church…is a total waste of time and effort…since these were just local synods…

 

[JonNC]

It’s a similar system of fabrications

The only fabrication here is the fabrication that Lutheran understanding of AS is anything like Baptist. Tm

Jon

 

[guanophore]

So create your own canon. You have the authority, right?

Matt, your posts continue to be off topic in the thread. You seem to have some strong bile you need to vent about Luther and other protestants. You are now violating the forum rules.

Guidelines
For both Catholic and non-Catholic posters:

It is acceptable to question the doctrine or dogma of another's faith
It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual's beliefs
Bringing up historical controversies peculiar to a particular religion should be done cautiously*
    It is acceptable to discuss the effect the incident had on current policy or practice.
    It is acceptable to seek the truth vs. commonly-held beliefs or conventional wisdom about actual events.
    It is fallacious reasoning to use embarrassing incidents to claim that they "prove" a particular religion is false.
Expecting members of any Church to defend or answer for the excesses or extremism of bodies that have broken with it is a technique that has no merit and can't be defended.

*It is our observation that discussion of such past events rarely serves a useful purpose and inevitably opens a thread to posts that violate forum rules and/or the bounds of civil discourse. So, while such threads may be useful, they raise a red flag for the Moderation staff.

=============================================================

In this post you have accused another forum member of doing something that was an act of one of the original Reformers. Not only is your accusation a violation, but it is not accurate.

 

[guanophore]

Never believe any Protestant denominations have apostolic succession. Been saying that all my life here. Only stop saying it because it can be very embarrassing to hear them explaining how they get it. No truth thinking Christians would agree that it is apostolic succession in a strict sense of apostolic succession.

Frankly I have not heard this before but now I am hearing it, I can say it is utterly funny. I guess the less said about this the better. Let’s talk about something we have in common with the Lutherans, like believing that Jesus is our Savior.

How about getting back to the thread topic?

 

[Reuben_J]

How about getting back to the thread topic?

It is alright to state one’s opinion and then backs it up with your reasons. The poster did that by giving references from wiki. His reasons were of course denied by the other parties. It is still within Forum’s rule. Both parties contributed to the quagmire and that was why the argument dragged on. Both did not want to give in. Thus both parties are responsible to the state of the discussion to reach this far.

The topic of apostolic succession is nothing new in discussing with Protestants. Some claim to have it and Catholics obviously think they do not. That includes this Catholic.

It is a matter of whether one wants to proceed on with the argument or not. I do not, for obvious reason. It is not very pretty but facts are facts.

I can understand why you are so angry. Maybe because it is not politically correct.

Objectively speaking, it started with post #4 which was acknowledged by the OP in post #5.

The point of contention was Rom 3:28 which formed one of the basis of Sola Fide on whether the word ‘alone’ was added by Luther or not; whether Sola Fide was an invention if the word ‘alone’ was really an addition. You can understand why Lutherans posters here have to defend that but I think Matt did stand his ground. Look like they had to go very deep into history to prove that and I thought that was what the conversation about.

As far as the Biblical verses that are relevant to this topic, they have been given, if that is what you want. Then there is nothing much left. We all can explain those verses, depending on our respective interpretations. But to stop discussing about them, I think, would restrict this argument to go into depth. And it looks like we are quite afraid into going into the deep waters.

As far as I am concerned I heard all these already but what Matt said is something new to me, and I was quite interested. But no worries, it is ok with me. We can stop here.