Saved by Faith alone

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estesbob

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Myy Protestant friends tell me they are saved becuase they have accepted Jesus Christ as their perosnal and therfore they are saved,

Lets assume for a minute this is correct. What happens to all of those who were never exposed to Jesus. The stock answer is that Jesus makes himself known to everyone. But was there a grace period?(no pun intended). Say Jesus dies on the cross on a Friday afternoon at 3PM and at the same time an old man in the Jungles of africa dies. does he go to hell? And if not was there a certain time limit bfore God starting enforcing this rule?

The Catholic response to this a person can live such a life that exemplifies what Christ stands for ecvn if he doesnt know his name or even know he existed he is saved. So what is the Evangelical Chrisitans solution to this problem?
 
The errancy of sola fide (faith alone) is that our state of grace is not static. We sin and merely having faith in God is not sufficient, as Scripture shows us, to being in a state of grace with God’s will.

Scripture tells us that the gate to heaven is narrow, and it is only through applying ourselves to maintaining our state of grace that we can ensure that we don’t join those legions of “good intent” that litter the wayside.

Another example why faith alone is not sufficient: Peter denounced Christ three times; yet he was still handed the keys. And yes, superficially one could say that Peter’s faith overcame the denunciation, but examining the deeper “why” of that will help sola scripturaists find the right path.
 
I don’t know exactly what you mean by Evangelical but I will give what I believe altough it may not prove helpful.

I don’t know what will happen to those who have never heard of Jesus. I believe, as the Bible tells us, that God wants all to be saved. I know we should carry the Gospel to all we can but I also know that God is good and just and whatever He does will be right. I trust him completely and don’t need to know why or how He will deal with them. God does not owe us an explanation and if He hasn’t told us something we shouldn’t speculate but simply trust Him.
 
Non-Catholic - Saved when I found Jesus
Catholic - Saved when Jesus finds me
 
Exodus15 said:
Non-Catholic - Saved when I found Jesus
Catholic - Saved when Jesus finds me
Click to expand...
An oddly errant view of Catholicism. Like a TV 30-second sound bite; sounds good but it is bereft of any substantive meaning.
 
All you have to do is refer them to Matthew 25,34-46.
That makes it clear we are saved or damned by our works.
I think the real reason why Protestants downplay the importance of works is so that the believer may think that if he helps the poor,the weak,the sick that he is doing it out of his own morality rather than humble obedience to God’s commandment. So that leaves room for pride of accomplishment,self-satisfaction,giving credit to one’s self. It leaves room for deciding whether one should help the poor,the weak,the sick at all. It leaves room for excusing one’s self of divine commandment.

"So you also,when you have done all that you were ordered to do,say,‘We are worthless slaves,we have done only what we ought to have done!’ " Luke 17,10.
 
quantumDeus said:
The errancy of sola fide (faith alone) is that our state of grace is not static. We sin and merely having faith in God is not sufficient, as Scripture shows us, to being in a state of grace with God’s will.

Scripture tells us that the gate to heaven is narrow, and it is only through applying ourselves to maintaining our state of grace that we can ensure that we don’t join those legions of “good intent” that litter the wayside.

Another example why faith alone is not sufficient: Peter denounced Christ three times; yet he was still handed the keys. And yes, superficially one could say that Peter’s faith overcame the denunciation, but examining the deeper “why” of that will help sola scripturaists find the right path.
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So there is no answer, Yet if we take the interperation of Scripture that preavils among Evangelical Christians all these people are condemend to eternal hellfire-including the poor guy who died 5 minutes after the death of Jesus.

I am not trying to be sarcasitc here - this has always, to me , been the fatal flaw of Sola Fidelis.
 
estesbob said:
Myy Protestant friends tell me they are saved becuase they have accepted Jesus Christ as their perosnal and therfore they are saved,

Lets assume for a minute this is correct. What happens to all of those who were never exposed to Jesus. The stock answer is that Jesus makes himself known to everyone. But was there a grace period?(no pun intended). Say Jesus dies on the cross on a Friday afternoon at 3PM and at the same time an old man in the Jungles of africa dies. does he go to hell? And if not was there a certain time limit bfore God starting enforcing this rule?

The Catholic response to this a person can live such a life that exemplifies what Christ stands for ecvn if he doesnt know his name or even know he existed he is saved. So what is the Evangelical Chrisitans solution to this problem?
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I’m assuming you are asking about good works, not works of the law.

If so, its all posturing to prove “faith and works” wrong.

I know only a few devout Protestants who are not involved in good works.

They can explain the whole faith vs. faith and works thing however they want, but we need their works.

A good example is the Shriners. Say whatever you like, but they do tons of good works.
 
quantumDeusQuote:
Originally Posted by Exodus15 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Non-Catholic - Saved when I found Jesus
Catholic - Saved when Jesus finds me
An oddly errant view of Catholicism. Like a TV 30 second sound bite; sounds good but it is bereft of any substantive meaning.
Salvation belongs to the Lord alone. WE cannot save ourselves. Only by the gift of the Lord’s grace and mercy we are saved.

Ex
 
anthony022071 said:
All you have to do is refer them to Matthew 25,34-46.
That makes it clear we are saved or damned by our works.
I think the real reason why Protestants downplay the importance of works is so that the believer may think that if he helps the poor,the weak,the sick that he is doing it out of his own morality rather than humble obedience to God’s commandment. So that leaves room for pride of accomplishment,self-satisfaction,giving credit to one’s self. It leaves room for deciding whether one should help the poor,the weak,the sick at all. It leaves room for excusing one’s self of divine commandment.

"So you also,when you have done all that you were ordered to do,say,‘We are worthless slaves,we have done only what we ought to have done!’ " Luke 17,10.
Click to expand...
Despite your wording, I assume you don’t mean we are saved by works without faith. Protestants certainly don’t think that they can do anything without God’s grace. We say we are saved through faith alone, not faith that is alone. We are not saved by works we are saved for works. If works play a part in our salvation, how many works do we need? As the Scripture you quoted says, we already owe God all the good works we could possibly do. How then can we merit anything? We can’t.
Yes there are many passages that say that works are important. For example,
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
(Romans 2:5-8)
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Protestants are not stupid, we do not ignore these references. But we also don’t ignore the myriad of passages that say we are faith by faith or believing in Jesus. They must be reconciled. We also do not ignore James.
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
(James 2:24)
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How are the various passages harmonized? We recognize that justification is a forensic matter. When we are justified we are declared just by God because of Jesus’ sacrifice. Justify means to show or declare righteous. When understood this way the various passages can be reconciled. When Paul speaks about justification.in letters like Romans and Galatians he is talking about us being justified by God. We are declared innocent by God by grace through faith. When James is talking about justification he is talking about how we can be shown righteous in the eyes of our fellows. In that cases it is not enough to simply say we believe. We must say we believe and demonstrate it by our works. That is what James is talking about in the preceeding verses.
But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
(James 2:18)
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In the same way as our works are evidence of faith to others, they will be evidence at the final judgement. God will not only be just, he will be seen to be just. People will see our works and recognize God is right in his judgement.

If you are charged with a crime and you are innocent, the judge can declare you not guilty. But as the saying goes, justice does not only need to be done, it must be seen to be done. That is the purpose of the evidence. The evidence does not make us guilty or not guilty, but it shows that the judge is right in acquitting or convicting us. In the same way, our works will be the evidence by which God will show justice is being done, not because we are not guilty, but because He declares us to be because of Jesus’ sacrifice. We are judged according to our works as evidence not by our works as making us innocent.

As the Lord says, you can tell a tree by its fruit. The fruit does not make the tree good, but shows it is good. That is in effect what James says; you say you believe but how can we tell without the fruit?
 
And that declaration of righteousness can be lost if we lose faith. God will no longer declare us righteous because we are no longer claiming the gift of Jesus’ sacrifice if we do not maintain faith. It is like we have a sign on us that flashes not guilty as long as we are connected to God by faith as to battery. If we break the connection, the light goes out.
 
This prayer by Mother Teresa is a beautiful example of faith and works

The fruit of SILENCE is prayer
the fruit of PRAYER is faith
the fruit of FAITH is love
the fruit of LOVE is service
the fruit of SERVICE is peace

and not only help each other in physical terms or strength but help others spiritually such as helping Protestants become better Protestants, helping Catholics become better Catholics, helping Muslims become better Muslims, etc, for we are all brought together in prayer to God
 
SyCarl said:
Despite your wording, I assume you don’t mean we are saved by works without faith.

You’re right.

Protestants certainly don’t think that they can do anything without God’s grace. We say we are saved through faith alone, not faith that is alone. We are not saved by works we are saved for works. If works play a part in our salvation, how many works do we need?

We can’t know that.God does the calculating. What we do know is that we must not be complacent,but be righteous in excess.

As the Scripture you quoted says, we already owe God all the good works we could possibly do. How then can we merit anything? We can’t.

Jesus was talking about the appropriate attitude of humility that we as servants should have,so that we will not be proud or feel self-justified. He did not say that there is no merit for good works in the eyes of God. There must be consideration of merit through works if there is to be justice. It would be a mockery of justice if a believer in God who did not act out the commandment “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” received the same judgement as a heathen who did act out that commandment.

“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles ,who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires,these,though not having the law,are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts,to which their own conscience also bears witness;and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when,according to my gospel,God,through Jesus Christ,will judge the secret thoughts of all.” Romans 2,14-16.

How are the various passages harmonized? We recognize that justification is a forensic matter. When we are justified we are declared just by God because of Jesus’ sacrifice. Justify means to show or declare righteous. When understood this way the various passages can be reconciled. When Paul speaks about justification.in letters like Romans and Galatians he is talking about us being justified by God. We are declared innocent by God by grace through faith. When James is talking about justification he is talking about how we can be shown righteous in the eyes of our fellows.

James,the follower of Jesus who said “So whenever you give alms,do not sound a trumpet before you ,as the hypocrites doin the synagogues and in the steets,so that they may be praised by others.” ? And who said “But when you give alms,do not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing,so that your alms may be done in secret,and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.” ?

In that cases it is not enough to simply say we believe. We must say we believe and demonstrate it by our works. That is what James is talking about in the preceeding verses.

James 2,17 : “So faith by itself,if it has no works,is dead.”

How can a dead faith lead to eternal life?
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anthony022071 said:
All you have to do is refer them to Matthew 25,34-46.
That makes it clear we are saved or damned by our works.
Click to expand...
Actually, neither Catholics nor Protestants believe that we are saved by works.

Yet, this passage is very compelling, and I’ve always wondered why it is so widely ignored. Perhaps it is because it does give such importance to works.

The passage, actually beginning at v31, is after all, a description of the Last Judgment, narrated by Christ himself.

And in the narrative, it seems clear that those who are either sent to heaven to inherit the kingdom or who are banished to hell, are judged precisely on their good works or lack thereof! He doesn’t ask anyone whether they believe; rather he judges based on what they have done.

(Actually, I think that Faith and works are two sides of the same thing. It’s like asking whether light consists of particles or waves. The answer is both, but for a long time we tried to make it one or the other.)

But if I were anticipating facing the last judgment, as all of us must, I would certainly ponder this passage long and hard.
 
Exodus15 said:
quantumDeusQuote:
Originally Posted by Exodus15 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Non-Catholic - Saved when I found Jesus
Catholic - Saved when Jesus finds me
An oddly errant view of Catholicism. Like a TV 30 second sound bite; sounds good but it is bereft of any substantive meaning.
Salvation belongs to the Lord alone. WE cannot save ourselves. Only by the gift of the Lord’s grace and mercy we are saved.

Ex
Click to expand...
We don’t save ourselves: Christ did that for us; what we can do is live as Jesus taught, as was given to the apostles to carry forward, and to repent of our sins when we commit them.
 
Faith Alone is a misnomer. Protestants don’t believe in Faith without anything else as the name implies. It was just a catchy slogan. Remember, it can’t be alone when there are 4 others.

God’s Grace
Christ
Scripture
Glory belongs only to God
 
Syele said:
Faith Alone is a misnomer. Protestants don’t believe in Faith without anything else as the name implies. It was just a catchy slogan. Remember, it can’t be alone when there are 4 others.

God’s Grace
Christ
Scripture
Glory belongs only to God
Click to expand...
So if you follow those 4 rape, muder, pillage et al is perfectly OK. ?

And , again, how about those poor Souls who died before Christianity was kown outsied of Israel? You seem to worhship a very egotistical God-know my sons name OR ELSE!!!
 
faith alone sounds like once saved always saved, they kinda make it seem like it’s not really a big deal to sin atlong as you acknowledge Christ existed and Died.
 
St_Violet said:
faith alone sounds like once saved always saved, they kinda make it seem like it’s not really a big deal to sin atlong as you acknowledge Christ existed and Died.
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Its one way free will-you have the free will to accpet Jesus but do not have the free will to reject him(via sin).
 
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