Saved by Faith alone

[Syele]

I do, yes. The mainstream Protestant one that you espouse, (not the fundamental one I referred to earlier) is an articulation of the “no salvation outside the church” doctrine, although the understanding of “church” is not there, the belief is very similar in my opinion.

We have to be careful though because this belief can be twisted to near unrecognizaleness by Protestant and Catholic alike, through a “it doesn’t matter what we believe” kind of thing, to make it practically meaningless.

God Bless,
Maria

you said what I meant. I think estebob meant something else.

 

[MariaG]

you said what I meant. I think estebob meant something else.

I don’t know. Maybe estebob was referring to those non-Catholics who interpret it very narrowly, thinking this was a universal belief of Protestants?

I do know among the fundamentalists like Nazarene, AoG, Evangelical, the man is Africa is going to hell.

But I also know the Methodists, Lutheran,… tend to basically see it the way the CAtholic church does, at least those like me .

 

[SyCarl]

So you beleive in a doctrine that does not apply to everyone.A strange(and meaningless) doctrine indeed.

BTW-Does this trusing him to do right also apply to Jews who know of him and but do not beleive he is the Messiah?

The doctrine applies to everyone. What we do not know is how God will apply it to everyone.

I understand the present Catholic position and it may well be correct, but there may also be other means by which God will deal with those who have never heard. We know that Abraham was justified by faith so he falls under the doctrine even if he did not know Jesus’ name.

But as for the Catholic position, it appears to me that it has changed over time. In 1302 the Bull Unam Sanctum was issued by Boniface VIII giving a very narrow view of the Church.

UNAM SANCTAM (Promulgated November 18, 1302)

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: ‘One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,’ and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]…Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html

Similarly in Cantate Domino Pope Eugene IV said:

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

catholicism.org/cantate-domino.html

So should I trust God, or a Church doctrine that appears to have meant different things at different time?

 

[SyCarl]

So then there’s no reason for Protestants who do not preach “once saved, always saved” NOT to reunite with Roman Catholicism. If the great theological beef has come down to semantics, why remain outside of Mother Church?

I could not in good conscience enter the Roman Catholic Church. The only separation is not faith alone. The Church has proclaimed many doctrine and dogmas that I cannot accept. As the Church requires belief in all it proposes I could not join.

 

[truthnlight]

faith alone sounds like once saved always saved, they kinda make it seem like it’s not really a big deal to sin atlong as you acknowledge Christ existed and Died.

1 John 2: 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Mat.7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

2John 1: 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

 

[estesbob]

I don’t know. Maybe estebob was referring to those non-Catholics who interpret it very narrowly, thinking this was a universal belief of Protestants?

I do know among the fundamentalists like Nazarene, AoG, Evangelical, the man is Africa is going to hell.

But I also know the Methodists, Lutheran,… tend to basically see it the way the CAtholic church does, at least those like me .

I can not tell you number times i have an Prostestant friend tell me all jews are going to hell or say the same about muslims and in some cases about catholics. The everbody can be saved even if they dont know Jesus comments we see in this thread are contray to every thing I have ever heard from in any of my evangelical friends.

Per our Church that mythical guy in Africa can be saved even if he never knows Christ but we are commaned to do our best to make sure he does know about Christ and his Church.

 

[anthony022071]

SyCarl;2366845:

Despite your wording, I assume you don’t mean we are saved by works without faith.

You’re right.

Protestants certainly don’t think that they can do anything without God’s grace. We say we are saved through faith alone, not faith that is alone. We are not saved by works we are saved for works. If works play a part in our salvation, how many works do we need?

We can’t know that.God does the calculating. What we do know is that we must not be complacent,but be righteous in excess.

As the Scripture you quoted says, we already owe God all the good works we could possibly do. How then can we merit anything? We can’t.

Jesus was talking about the appropriate attitude of humility that we as servants should have,so that we will not be proud or feel self-justified. He did not say that there is no merit for good works in the eyes of God. There must be consideration of merit through works if there is to be justice. It would be a mockery of justice if a believer in God who did not act out the commandment “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” received the same judgement as a heathen who did act out that commandment.

“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles ,who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires,these,though not having the law,are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts,to which their own conscience also bears witness;and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when,according to my gospel,God,through Jesus Christ,will judge the secret thoughts of all.” Romans 2,14-16.

How are the various passages harmonized? We recognize that justification is a forensic matter. When we are justified we are declared just by God because of Jesus’ sacrifice. Justify means to show or declare righteous. When understood this way the various passages can be reconciled. When Paul speaks about justification.in letters like Romans and Galatians he is talking about us being justified by God. We are declared innocent by God by grace through faith. When James is talking about justification he is talking about how we can be shown righteous in the eyes of our fellows.

James,the follower of Jesus who said “So whenever you give alms,do not sound a trumpet before you ,as the hypocrites doin the synagogues and in the steets,so that they may be praised by others.” ? And who said “But when you give alms,do not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing,so that your alms may be done in secret,and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.” ?

In that cases it is not enough to simply say we believe. We must say we believe and demonstrate it by our works. That is what James is talking about in the preceeding verses.

James 2,17 : “So faith by itself,if it has no works,is dead.”

How can a dead faith lead to eternal life?

 

[estesbob]

I don’t know. Maybe estebob was referring to those non-Catholics who interpret it very narrowly, thinking this was a universal belief of Protestants?

I do know among the fundamentalists like Nazarene, AoG, Evangelical, the man is Africa is going to hell.

But I also know the Methodists, Lutheran,… tend to basically see it the way the CAtholic church does, at least those like me .

I can not tell you number times i have an Prostestant friend tell me all jews are going to hell or say the same about muslims and in some cases about catholics. The everbody can be saved even if they dont know Jesus comments we see in this thread are contray to every thing I have ever heard from in any of my evangelical friends.

Per our Church that mythical guy in Africa can be saved, albeit it will be extremely difficult, even if he never knows Christ but we are commaned to do our best to make sure he does know about Christ and his Church.

 

[MariaG]

I can not tell you number times i have an Prostestant friend tell me all jews are going to hell or say the same about muslims and in some cases about catholics. The everbody can be saved even if they dont know Jesus comments we see in this thread are contray to every thing I have ever heard from in any of my evangelical friends.

Per our Church that mythical guy in Africa can be saved even if he never knows Christ but we are commaned to do our best to make sure he does know about Christ and his Church.

That is the key right there. Among the Evangelical/fundamental crowd, this is a very universal belief. The man in Africa is condemned to hell. But in other denominations, this is frequently not the case. They believe as we do that the guy in Africa can be saved also.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Syele]

That is the key right there. Among the Evangelical/fundamental crowd, this is a very universal belief. The man in Africa is condemned to hell. But in other denominations, this is frequently not the case. They believe as we do that the guy in Africa can be saved also.

God Bless,
Maria

I believe he could be saved, but he’d sure have a better chance of it if he had more information.

 

[MariaG]

The doctrine applies to everyone. What we do not know is how God will apply it to everyone.

I understand the present Catholic position and it may well be correct, but there may also be other means by which God will deal with those who have never heard. We know that Abraham was justified by faith so he falls under the doctrine even if he did not know Jesus’ name.

But as for the Catholic position, it appears to me that it has changed over time. In 1302 the Bull Unam Sanctum was issued by Boniface VIII giving a very narrow view of the Church.

fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html

Similarly in Cantate Domino Pope Eugene IV said:

catholicism.org/cantate-domino.html

So should I trust God, or a Church doctrine that appears to have meant different things at different time?

It is important to understand the context of those writings.

And doctrine can develop. We still 100% believe that one will be saved through Christ, through His Church. We just have come to understand that there are those who will be saved in this manner, who through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His church.

This is like the development and fully articulated doctrine of the Trinity. Or understanding and articulating the incarnation of Christ.

We are promised we will be led to all truth. Do you think this process of leading stopped? That there is nothing new we can come to understand about that which has already been revealed? Do you not pick up the bible and find out something new each time you read it? Why do you think the Catholic Church has stopped being led by the Holy Spirit as promised by Scripture?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I believe he could be saved, but he’d sure have a better chance of it if he had more information.

Which is the teaching of the Catholic Church and the reason we must never stop evangelizing. Just because someone has a “chance” does not mean we should leave it to chance.

Spread the good news! That is always the Christians job.

God bless,
Maria

 

[estesbob]

Which is the teaching of the Catholic Church and the reason we must never stop evangelizing. Just because someone has a “chance” does not mean we should leave it to chance.

Spread the good news! That is always the Christians job.

God bless,
Maria

“Preach the Gospel at all times, use words if necessary”

St Francis Assissi

 

[MariaG]

“Preach the Gospel at all times, use words if necessary”

St Francis Assissi

Yup. This is frequently how Catholics feel about it. Another reason why people sometimes mistakenly think we are trying to earn our way to heaven Instead of judging us by our fruits, they presume to judge what is in our hearts.

 

[quantumDeus]

So there is no answer, Yet if we take the interperation of Scripture that preavils among Evangelical Christians all these people are condemend to eternal hellfire-including the poor guy who died 5 minutes after the death of Jesus.

I am not trying to be sarcasitc here - this has always, to me , been the fatal flaw of Sola Fidelis.

From what we can draw from Scripture, we are judged on our faith (that is, belief in Jesus and what he taught) and by our acts. The purist sola scripturaist or sola fideist will try to find justification to preclude the other’s argument.

The truth of the matter is: (a) It is God who ultimately judges by whatever criteria He wishes to use and (b) humans are a blend of their physical, emotional and spiritual composition. God knows this, He created us, after all, and assumed our nature to fully experience it.

I will point out the greatest inherent dangers of sola scriptura here: (a) if each person interprets Scripture according to their human motivations, we end up with 1.6 billion interpretations of Scripture; and (b) the practice of relying on Scripture alone totally ignores that, particularly in NT Scripture, a significant portion of it is directed to errant communities, so therefore, examining Scripture alone and so narrowly, sola scripturaists are viewing the Word through a keyhole. To see the whole view, as was intended in the kata holos church, that is to say, the living body of the church (i.e., the early Christians), they should also consider Apostolic Tradition and Magisterium.

The word Catholic derives from the Greek kata holos, that is, universal. Jesus saw his legacy not as an infinite number of splinters of individual belief, but one united body. Catholics should regret and look with sorrow upon the self-amputation from that body by Protestants. We ought forgive them the folly of following the works of man and take every opportunity to rejoin them with the kata holos body of Christ on earth.

 

[quantumDeus]

A ps to my previous post.

To the sola fide crowd, I would caution against self-assurance. Yes, I know you can point to various verses of Scripture to make a point. However, the point is always about self-justification and does not follow the intent of Scripture as a whole.

Cherry-picking Scripture, we can try to prove just about anything. And it begs the question: if you have to cherry-pick from Scripture, then you aren’t totally reliant on faith alone, are you?

 

[anthony022071]

A ps to my previous post.

To the sola fide crowd, I would caution against self-assurance. Yes, I know you can point to various verses of Scripture to make a point. However, the point is always about self-justification and does not follow the intent of Scripture as a whole.

True. The self-assurance and self-justification of Protestants would contradict Jesus himself in Matthew 25,34,46,as well as Paul in Romans 2,14-16,and also James 2,17 : “So faith by itself,if it has no works,is dead.”

Now if faith is dead because it has no works,how can a dead faith save a man for eternal life? If a man does not have works,he does not have faith either!

 

[quantumDeus]

True. The self-assurance and self-justification of Protestants would contradict Jesus himself in Matthew 25,34,46,as well as Paul in Romans 2,14-16,and also James 2,17 : “So faith by itself,if it has no works,is dead.”

Now if faith is dead because it has no works,how can a dead faith save a man for eternal life? If a man does not have works,he does not have faith either!

Humans are composites of their flesh, their intellect and their faith. No single restrictive approach to Scripture will rectify that. If one does good works, but does not have faith, one is merely a good-hearted human secularist. If one has faith but does no good works, then they have not adhered to what Christ and God desired, in short, that intentions (faith) be shown, not merely felt.

The caveat, however, is that we ingrain this doing of good works as a way of life, as a matter of submitting to God’s will, and not that it is because we derive material benefit in some fashion, that is “put on a face.”

 

[JimG]

From what we can draw from Scripture, we are judged on our faith (that is, belief in Jesus and what he taught) and by our acts.

I can certainly agree with that. I still wonder though, why the actual Last Judgment narrative by Christ given in Matthew 25:31-46, is so widely ignored by those who assert that Faith alone saves. In this narrative, Christ separates everyone into two groups, the saved and the damned, based upon their works during their earthly life.

 

[anthony022071]

I can certainly agree with that. I still wonder though, why the actual Last Judgment narrative by Christ given in Matthew 25:31-46, is so widely ignored by those who assert that Faith alone saves. In this narrative, Christ separates everyone into two groups, the saved and the damned, based upon their works during their earthly life.

It’s because people don’t really believe that Jesus was being serious,or that he will follow up on his threat,or that this warning applies to them. If we feel like we are decent people,we are not inclined to think that we may be damned for passing by the poor and needy. People do not make the correlation between serving the poor and serving God,even though Jesus spelled it out for us. Throughout the Old Testament,the point is made that God favors the poor,the needy,the stranger,the weak,the oppressed,the homeless – and when God became man he underscored the point by becoming like that himself.
We do not have Jesus,as a man,with us;but the poor are always with us,and we can help them anytime we want. So Christians should consider the poor and needy to be like substitutes or representatives of God. When we give to them,we give to Jesus. When we scorn them,we scorn Jesus.