Saved by faith or by work?

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AugustineH354:
I have read the book cover-to-cover and have found nothing in Kung’s teaching on justification that contradicts official Catholic dogma. (BTW, have you read the book?) Aug
No, I have not read his book, nor will I. I leave it to the Church to determine whether Kung’s writings contradict official Catholic dogma. The Church has spoken in the matter of Hans Kung.

Peace be to you and to all.
 
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homer:
The Catholic church says that the work we do on earth is equally important to the faith and that we are saved by our work.
I say that we are only saved by faith and that good work comes as a result of our faith.

How can these verses be explained:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.(Ephesians 2: 9-10).
Thank you.
Homer -

You ask important questions.

It brings up something important: The entirety of the plan of salvation is NOT bond up in an either/or mutually exclusive relationship between faith and works. That is a red herring, a deception that is dangerous to get caught up in. Faith and works are NOT mutually exclusive. They are complementary. BOTH are part of the plan of salvation.

The use of a verse, such as the one you quoted, as a “proof” text is an easy trap to fall into, and is one that is responsible for a great deal of the misinterpretation of scripture that has gone on for lo these many centuries. In order to make a judgement or interpretation about what “saves” us, one has to find ALL of what scripture says about it, not just this verse that SEEMS to point in one direction, or that verse that SEEMS to point in another direction. When one looks at the totality of scriptures talking about salvation, one will readily see that neither faith alone NOR works alone is totally sufficient. Both are part of the picture.

The Catholic Church (neither Upper Case “C” as in Roman, nor lower case “c” as in the church catholic [universal] ) does not teach salvation by works, either. In fact, a relatively early council of the undivided church proclaimed the belief that humans possesses the ability and faculties to behave in such a manner as to be saved by their actions was a heresy known as Pelagianism. It’s a heresy. Plain and simple. Faith only is a heresy that is the opposite side of the same coin.

Taken alone, verses from the Epistle of James COULD be used as a weapon, too, seemig to say that works (alone) might save. The fact is that looking at all the scriptures that talk about faith and works, one will find BOTH are part of the plan, and are not in opposition to each other, but each is a necessary complement to the other.

Pax Christi!
 
It is good to see that we agree on the doctrine that, through misunderstanding and politics, split the western church.

Just remember that when an evangelical asks you if you are saved, they aren’t asking you if you are already in heaven, or if you have achieved sinless perfection. They are asking if you are living in a state of grace. Have you repented of your known sins and ‘bowed the knee as creature before the Creator’ asked for forgiveness, and seek to follow Him. They are asking about initial justification, not the whole completion of the matter.

Only Zane Hodges and his gang, a very recent phenomenon, hold to faith as intellectual assent only. I’m not sure that even -they- go -that- far.
 
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Puzzled:
Just remember that when an evangelical asks you if you are saved, they aren’t asking you if you are already in heaven, or if you have achieved sinless perfection. They are asking if you are living in a state of grace. Have you repented of your known sins and ‘bowed the knee as creature before the Creator’ asked for forgiveness, and seek to follow Him. They are asking about initial justification, not the whole completion of the matter.
Hmm…Good to know. Thank you!
 
If works don’t count for salvation, why do we have the 10 Commandments? Similarly, why does Jesus tell us to love each other, and to forgive each other? Arn’t loving someone or forgiving someone “works”? Put another way, if we intentionally and knowingly disregard Jesus’ teaching to love or forgive, do we then forfeit our salvation? (Yes, these are rhetorical questions, but I am curious to hear the Protestant response.)
 
When I attended a prebyterian church we were taught that we were saved by faith and works. Never anything about grace, that wasn’t until I came to RCC. The best way I have heard it put is we are save by God’s grace with faith working though love.
 
Gods grace alone saves us:

Rom 3:24 “They{we} are justified freely by his {Gods’} grace…”

Ti 2:11 “For the grace of God has appeared, saving all”

We are justified for Gods grace by our Faith on judgment day. How do we know if our Faith is true and good or empty and rotten? Faith is the Fig tree, the fruit is our work. If the fruit is good then our Faith is alive and good. If the fruit is rotten or nonexistent, then our Faith is dead. The only way to judge our faith is by our work. Faith and works are not two different things, they are one. Without works there is no Faith, without Faith there are no works. Faith also includes everything we believe in as Christians.

Mal 3:5 “5 I will draw near to you for judgment, and I will be swift to bear witness Against the sorcerers, adulterers, and perjurers, those who defraud the hired man of his wages, Against those who defraud widows and orphans; those who turn aside the stranger, and those who do not fear me, says the LORD of hosts.”

2 Tim 4:1 “…Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead…”

Mt 7:15-23 “15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So by their fruits you will know them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’”

Mt 16:27 “27 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.”

Mt 19:16-21 “16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” 17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; 19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’" 20 The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.””

Mt 21:23 “43 Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit.”

Rom 2:5-7 “…the just judgment of God…who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,”

Phil 3:11-17 “if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead. 12 It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ (Jesus). 13 Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession. Just one thing: forgetting what lies behind but straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God’s upward calling, in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us, then, who are “perfectly mature” adopt this attitude. And if you have a different attitude, this too God will reveal to you. 16 Only, with regard to what we have attained, continue on the same course. 17 Join with others in being imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus conduct themselves according to the model you have in us.”

Heb 9:27-28 “Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, 28 so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.”

Mt 10:22 “22 You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.”

I felt Scripture would answer better then my words. Its not ‘either/or’ Faith or works. Faith alone is dead. Works alone are dead. Its ‘both /and’. Works must be freely given also and come from Faith and Love. This will give you Hope for salvation. Faith-Hope-Love. Praise God!:bowdown:

Long topic, more to say, no more space.

Malachi4U
 
homer, are you there?..

…or do you just like to post mis-representations of the teachings of the Church hoping it will crush the faith of some poor Catholic and they will leave the RCC for “real Catholicism?” I notice you just post and run on several threads, never acknowledging the answers people take the time to give, or admitting your erroneous views of Catholicism.

If you think someone’s Faith in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church in here is threatened by your tired canards, you’ve come to the wrong forum.
 
actually, we aren’t saved by either. we are saved by grace , through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

so it is not faith or works that saves us but grace, which we obtain through faith which is shown by our works (the book of James which Martin Luther called “an epistle of straw” because it didn’t jive with his understanding of sola fide).
 
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Shibboleth:
Sorry I posted the qeustion here because I have been led to believe that it deals with “works”
Shibboleth, to give you a simple answer, indulgences take away the temporal punishments due to sin. Or, in a more simple way of saying it, they take away the punishments you endure in purgatory before your entrance into heaven. This is quite a simple explanation, and indulgences may need more discussion for a fuller understanding.

You started a thread a while back concerning purgatory and the subject of indulgences would fit better on that thread.
 
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bengal_fan:
actually, we aren’t saved by either. we are saved by "grace , through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

so it is not faith or works that saves us but grace, which we obtain through faith which is shown by our works (the book of James which Martin Luther called “an epistle of straw” because it didn’t jive with his understanding of sola fide).
Bengal Fan, Thanks for bringing Gods Truth forward. Our works will be judged,as it is one of the five judgements that will be brought before the throne and judged by our Lord Jesus Christ. I hope I am not trembling when that happens. 👍
 
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Fidelis:
homer, are you there?..

…or do you just like to post mis-representations of the teachings of the Church hoping it will crush the faith of some poor Catholic and they will leave the RCC for “real Catholicism?” I notice you just post and run on several threads, never acknowledging the answers people take the time to give, or admitting your erroneous views of Catholicism.

If you think someone’s Faith in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church in here is threatened by your tired canards, you’ve come to the wrong forum.
I have to agree with this. Homer there are many that care about you here and would like to help you understand the teaching of the Church but it seems that is not a goal of yours.

One other question if the interpertation of one verse of scripture is not in harmony with another verse of scripture, is the interpertation valid?

God Bless you Homer will be praying for you please do so for me.
 
I know many of you are frustrated with people like Homer. I know I was! But a few of you reminded me that Homer is not the only audience. There are lurkers out there we can affect without even knowing it. That is why it is so important to not lash out at those who are apparently not interested in even responding to threads they start. Always show Christian Charity.

Spokenword,
Did you know that by agreeing with Bengal_Fan, you are agreeing to the Catholic teaching of “faith and works”. Several others said similar things, Bengal_Fan is just more concise.

God Bless

P.S.
Not that I think any have lashed out yet, It just appears the tension is rising.
 
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MariaG:
I know many of you are frustrated with people like Homer. I know I was! But a few of you reminded me that Homer is not the only audience. There are lurkers out there we can affect without even knowing it. That is why it is so important to not lash out at those who are apparently not interested in even responding to threads they start. Always show Christian Charity.

Spokenword,
Did you know that by agreeing with Bengal_Fan, you are agreeing to the Catholic teaching of “faith and works”. Several others said similar things, Bengal_Fan is just more concise.

God Bless
Maria, You see there are things we both agree on ,Praise God
 
sorry,

you can’t have your cake and eat it too… it’s both, one is not mutually exclusive of the other…
 
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MariaG:
I know many of you are frustrated with people like Homer. I know I was! But a few of you reminded me that Homer is not the only audience. There are lurkers out there we can affect without even knowing it. That is why it is so important to not lash out at those who are apparently not interested in even responding to threads they start. Always show Christian Charity.

Spokenword,
Did you know that by agreeing with Bengal_Fan, you are agreeing to the Catholic teaching of “faith and works”. Several others said similar things, Bengal_Fan is just more concise.

God Bless

P.S.
Not that I think any have lashed out yet, It just appears the tension is rising.
Well said thanks
 
Perhaps this is an oversimplification, but let me make a quick observation… As a Lutheran in the early stages of conversion to the Catholic Church, I don’t think there is as much a difference as it seems on this topic between Catholics and Protestants–simply a different emphasis and understanding of the vocabulary. As we are reminded in the second chapter of James, “Faith without works is dead.” Couldn’t it be argued that works are simply the verification or manifestation of the faith within? You can’t have a flame without light. Comments encouraged…
 
Perhaps this is an oversimplification, but let me make a quick observation… As a Lutheran in the early stages of conversion to the Catholic Church, I don’t think there is as much a difference as it seems on this topic between Catholics and Protestants–simply a different emphasis and understanding of the vocabulary. As we are reminded in the second chapter of James, “Faith without works is dead.” Couldn’t it be argued that works are simply the verification or manifestation of the faith within? You can’t have a flame without light. Likewise, if you have faith, it should be visible without the aid of a microscope. Comments encouraged…
 
Quote by Charles: "Faith is from us. It is an act of obedience/contrition that we make freely to God. "

Sorry Charles , I disagree. Faith, Hope and Love are Theological Virtues. These virtues are given to us by God’s grace. Our intellectual belief is just that, belief. It is the beginning of our journey into Faith. Or I should say the beginning of Faith being infused into us. We grow in theological virtue by God’s grace alone.
 
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