Saved by What?

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sarks

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This is my first post here. I’m not RC, but have lots of questions. I’ll try to boil this question down and not ramble.

All my life I’ve heard the classic accusation against Catholics: “They believe they’re saved by works.” Lately I’ve run into some Catholics who say that isn’t so. Now I’m confused. I have lots of experience with a religious group who says we’re saved by both faith and works, but while they pay lip service to grace, there’s not really room for any in their theology. It ultimately always comes down to, “I’m saved because I obeyed.” So when I read Catholics saying they are saved by both faith and works, I’m skeptical. But then, I also see Catholics say that even works are by grace. So now I’m confused. As I’ve come to understand it more recently, faith is a gift (Ephesians 2:8), repentance is a gift (Acts 5:31, 2 Timothy 2:25). So how can you say that people exercise free will in order to believe or repent?

Not sure if I’ve stated my question clearly enough. If you need me to clarify, speak up and I’ll try.
 
Just because someone offers you a gift doesn’t eman you have to accept it. You can toss it in the trash if you want. Same goes for the gifts from God. A gift isn’t compulsory.
 
That’s very similar to what I’ve heard from the Pelagian group I grew up in. So ultimately it depends on my decision, not on God. If not, why not?
 
sarks said:
That’s very similar to what I’ve heard from the Pelagian group I grew up in. So ultimately it depends on my decision, not on God. If not, why not?
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Salvation is God’s initiative. It does not have its origin in the will of man. I cannot purely will myself into a saving relationship with God. Without His grace, we cannot chose God. That is why God has to chose us before we can chose Him.

If it’s okay to ask, what “Pelagian” group did your belong to?

God Bless,
Michael
 
sarks said:
That’s very similar to what I’ve heard from the Pelagian group I grew up in. So ultimately it depends on my decision, not on God. If not, why not?
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One of the problems with most Protestant theology is that it always comes down to a choice between seeming opposites. There’s a “this or that” mentality that tries to understand/explain a process that isn’t that simple.

Salvation is a “hand-in-hand” process between God and man. God gives his grace continually and we avail ourselves of it in various ways: prayer, sacraments, works, etc. IOW, it’s of a whole not a choice between this thing alone saves or that thing alone saves.

It’s an entire way of living and being, not just doing good or believing the right things, or of God choosing us or of us choosing God. It’s a dance of interweaving things not standing in line waiting to see what will be doled out to us. Does that help or make any sense?
 
Hello Sarks! Welcome to Catholic Answers! Here is an article that might be helpful:
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home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/grace2.html
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Also read this Catholic Paryer for grace from the Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis (i.e. written several decades before the Protestant Reformation)
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home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/grace5.html
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The article is very similar to what I believe. I do believe that works contribute to our salvation, but I believe that we can’t do any of those works, or even initially believe, without God’s enabling grace.
Salvation is God’s initiative. It does not have its origin in the will of man. I cannot purely will myself into a saving relationship with God. Without His grace, we cannot chose God. That is why God has to chose us before we can chose Him.
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When I see/hear Catholics talk this way, I wonder what is keeping Catholics and Protestants (at least the ones who believe as I do) apart.
If it’s okay to ask, what “Pelagian” group did your belong to?
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I grew up in the non-institutional churches of Christ. (They’re real big on not capitalizing “church”, implying that they are the true church.) They flatly deny original sin and believe instead that people are born tabula rasa.
One of the problems with most Protestant theology is that it always comes down to a choice between seeming opposites. There’s a “this or that” mentality that tries to understand/explain a process that isn’t that simple.
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I understand what you’re saying - that most Protestant objections to Catholicism depend on a false dichotomy. I think my beliefs are not that simple. As I mentioned just now, I do believe that works help to save us. But I no longer believe that works are the beginning of the process, but that grace is. The works come after the grace, and depend on that grace. Without the grace, there could be no works, no salutary acts, as the referenced article called them.

Does that change things? Am I still depending on a false dichotomy? If so, how?

Now that I think about it, I don’t think I’ve ever strictly believed in faith alone.
 
We are saved by grace (not faith) alone. The Sacraments are all avenues of grace, so by receiving the Sacraments we receive grace. By grace we over come sin. By grace we do good works. God gives us grace to answer his call. It is His Salvific Will that ALL be saved, so God initiates our conversion by giving us grace.

Marsha
 
Yes, we are saved by Grace alone. It’s how that grace is achieved is what separates Catholics and protestants. Protestants would say faith alone will achieve that grace, but we say that faith and good works will achieve that grace. See James 2:24 for further detail.
 
sarks said:
I think my beliefs are not that simple. As I mentioned just now, I do believe that works help to save us. But I no longer believe that works are the beginning of the process, but that grace is. The works come after the grace, and depend on that grace. Without the grace, there could be no works, no salutary acts, as the referenced article called them.
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Sounds like a pretty Catholic understanding, to me.

Jeremy
 
I am very curious why it matters. That is, if a person believes in God (and particularly in Jesus Christ), and lives a Christian life (I think we can both agree on what this is), then what difference does it make if that person doesn’t perfectly understand the mechanics of salvation? Will anybody’s incorrect theology really keep them out of heaven?
 
sarks said:
I grew up in the non-institutional churches of Christ. (They’re real big on not capitalizing “church”, implying that they are the true church.) They flatly deny original sin and believe instead that people are born tabula rasa.
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This sounds like the Church of Christ I’m familiar with. I’ve lost two friends to that church. I say “lost” because as soon as they joined that church, they pretty much cut off contact with me when they failed to convert me. One of my friends invited me to a Bible study and I accepted the invitation. It was really nice. As soon as the study ended, one of the participants came over to me and told me he was very impressed about what I said and asked me what church I attended. When I told him I was catholic, he asked me if he could speak to me for a few minutes. I said okay. Suddenly, I see my friend take out a notepad and the other one took out his Bible. While the man spoke, my friend took notes. verything was going well until we got to original sin. We had a debate that lasted for a while. After that, my friend never called me again. I’ve seen him several times since, but the relationship has never been the same.

God Bless,
Michael
 
VociMike said:
I am very curious why it matters. That is, if a person believes in God (and particularly in Jesus Christ), and lives a Christian life (I think we can both agree on what this is), then what difference does it make if that person doesn’t perfectly understand the mechanics of salvation? Will anybody’s incorrect theology really keep them out of heaven?
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How incorrect would the theology be?

A Hindu may claim to believe in God (one of many), who manifested as Jesus Christ (an avatar maybe even of Krisna, or perhaps a unique avatar), and lives a life the best he knows how, maybe even crossing himself, and going to a mass, I would say his salvation is uncertain.

Though I would think that many people with incorrect theology shared lovingly and humbly will find themselves in heaven, and many with correct theology shared without love or humility will find themselves elsewhere.

Let Christ be the judge.
 
sarks said:
The article is very similar to what I believe. I do believe that works contribute to our salvation, but I believe that we can’t do any of those works, or even initially believe, without God’s enabling grace.

When I see/hear Catholics talk this way, I wonder what is keeping Catholics and Protestants (at least the ones who believe as I do) apart.

I grew up in the non-institutional churches of Christ. (They’re real big on not capitalizing “church”, implying that they are the true church.) They flatly deny original sin and believe instead that people are born tabula rasa.

I understand what you’re saying - that most Protestant objections to Catholicism depend on a false dichotomy. I think my beliefs are not that simple. As I mentioned just now, I do believe that works help to save us. But I no longer believe that works are the beginning of the process, but that grace is. The works come after the grace, and depend on that grace. Without the grace, there could be no works, no salutary acts, as the referenced article called them.

Does that change things? Am I still depending on a false dichotomy? If so, how?

Now that I think about it, I don’t think I’ve ever strictly believed in faith alone.
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You seem to be right on the money when it comes to the basics of salvation 👍 . Not too may Protestants will admit what you just said. I’ll keep you in my prayers.

God bless,
Michael
 
We are saved by grace (not faith) alone. The Sacraments are all avenues of grace, so by receiving the Sacraments we receive grace. By grace we over come sin. By grace we do good works. God gives us grace to answer his call. It is His Salvific Will that ALL be saved, so God initiates our conversion by giving us grace.
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Most of this I agree with. I don’t currently hold any doctrine of sacraments, but I think I’m leaning toward agreement here. What sacraments are valid sacraments is another question I’ll save for another time. I’m also a little confused by the statement that God’s Salvific Will is for ALL to be saved. There again, I think I’ll save it for another thread.
 
sarks said:
All my life I’ve heard the classic accusation against Catholics: “They believe they’re saved by works.” Lately I’ve run into some Catholics who say that isn’t so. Now I’m confused. I have lots of experience with a religious group who says we’re saved by both faith and works, but while they pay lip service to grace, there’s not really room for any in their theology. It ultimately always comes down to, “I’m saved because I obeyed.” So when I read Catholics saying they are saved by both faith and works, I’m skeptical. But then, I also see Catholics say that even works are by grace. So now I’m confused. As I’ve come to understand it more recently, faith is a gift (Ephesians 2:8), repentance is a gift (Acts 5:31, 2 Timothy 2:25). So how can you say that people exercise free will in order to believe or repent?
Click to expand...
Faith and repentance are gifts, but we have the freedom to reject said gifts. There’s a user around here whose sig is something like “You can’t work your way into heaven, but you can sure not work your way into hell”. Basically, when we repent, we are justified. When we sin mortally, we are un-justified (Repeat as necessary).
sarks said:
That’s very similar to what I’ve heard from the Pelagian group I grew up in. So ultimately it depends on my decision, not on God. If not, why not?
Click to expand...
That’s not Pelagian. Pelagianism is strict works-salvation. Semi-Pelagianism is “God helps me work my way to salvation”.
 
Yes, we are saved by Grace alone. It’s how that grace is achieved is what separates Catholics and protestants. Protestants would say faith alone will achieve that grace, but we say that faith and good works will achieve that grace. See James 2:24 for further detail.
Click to expand...
Which comes first, the grace or the faith and good works? Which causes the other? And what does the Catholic church actually teach on this issue?
 
sarks said:
Most of this I agree with. I don’t currently hold any doctrine of sacraments, but I think I’m leaning toward agreement here. What sacraments are valid sacraments is another question I’ll save for another time. I’m also a little confused by the statement that God’s Salvific Will is for ALL to be saved. There again, I think I’ll save it for another thread.
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I believe you’re referring to predestination, right?

Read this article by James Akin:

cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm

God Bless,
Michael
 
I am very curious why it matters. That is, if a person believes in God (and particularly in Jesus Christ), and lives a Christian life (I think we can both agree on what this is), then what difference does it make if that person doesn’t perfectly understand the mechanics of salvation? Will anybody’s incorrect theology really keep them out of heaven?
Click to expand...
I think up to a point it doesn’t matter. Like you say, if a person believes in God and in Jesus Christ and lives as a Christian, then ultimately I think God will judge with mercy toward that person. But at some point, a faulty theology leads people away from God and Christ, even if it uses the words “God” and “Christ”. I was raised to believe that since I was not inherently tainted with sin in any way, it was up to me to come to God, there was no enabling of any kind on God’s part before I was to believe and obey. Many of the people who believe that live in despair because their faith tells them to simply choose to do good, but the reality of their own lives tells them they fail miserably at it. In that way, it matters immensely.
 
sarks said:
Which comes first, the grace or the faith and good works? Which causes the other? And what does the Catholic church actually teach on this issue?
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Grace must come first.

God Bless,
Michael
 
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