M
mikeledes
Guest
The Church of Christ does not believe in grace? Do they believe that faith is purely of human origin?
God bless,
Michael
- Status
God bless,
Michael
S
sarks
Guest
Could very well be the same one. It’s not the International Church of Christ or the United Church of Christ. It’s horribly splintered - they don’t believe in any kind of cooperation between individual groups at all, so any two groups will be at the same time as similar as two pieces of doublemint gum and different enough to each consider the other heretical.
V
Veritas41
Guest
Sarks, here’s what the Catechism says on salvation:
**1989 **The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.
**1990 **Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
**1991 **Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.
**1992 **Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus
**1993 **Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.
**1996 **Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
**2011 **The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.
After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own *justice *and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself. **2005 **Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits”- reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: “Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’” Hope that helps!
**1989 **The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.
**1990 **Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
**1991 **Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.
**1992 **Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus
**1993 **Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.
**1996 **Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
**2011 **The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.
After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own *justice *and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself. **2005 **Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits”- reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: “Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’” Hope that helps!
S
sarks
Guest
Pretty much. They pay lip service to grace, but as I understood it, grace was God giving you a second chance when you mess up. You’re capable of being good enough, you ought to be good enough, you weren’t… so you get another chance to try again. Humans being what they are, we need LOTS of second chances.
Another way I’ve heard it described amounts to God grading on a curve. They will say you have to choose God, believe in Him, obey Him, etc. None of these things actually earns salvation because they don’t equal salvation in value. But you have to dot all those i’s and cross all the right t’s in order to receive salvation. Examples run along the lines of a child who is told he will be taken to Disney World if he cleans his room. Or someone who is paid $5000 to mow a 1/4 acre lawn one time. The action doesn’t equal the reward, so, they say, it doesn’t earn it.
Most of them do not believe the Holy Spirit ever acts in a person’s heart. Most say that He works only through the Word (the Bible). So if a person rejects Christ it is entirely because he chose to, and never because he has not been given faith. And if a person accepts Christ it is entirely because he chose to, never because he was given the grace to believe. A few will say that the Holy Spirit lives in the Christian, but they don’t know what that means or how it works (that’s not an accusation - it’s what they themselves say about it). But they still believe that the whole process begins with a person’s entirely free decision and the Holy Spirit only enters the person’s heart after the person has proven himself worthy by making the right choice.
I’ve rejected that. I can now say with complete truthfulness that anything good about me is attributable to God and all that is bad about me is mine alone. I thought that made me a Calvinist. But finding out that the Catholic church teaches something very similar has me puzzled.
M
mikeledes
Guest
The process of salvation begins with God and God continues to work in our hearts throughout our journey to our heavenly home. All of the good that we do are a manifestation of love and this love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. We must cooperate with God, but the initiative always belongs to God.
God Bless,
Michael
J
jemfinch
Guest
S
sarks
Guest
I’m gonna have to go over the catechism more closely to make sure I understand what it says.
S
sb981
Guest
Sarkes, I too was raised in the non-institutional (anti) churches of Christ. I’m now in RCIA and am scheduled to be accepted into the Catholic church this Easter (Yay).
Part of the problem with the anti CoC is that they don’t really have a coherent statement of their beliefs. They can tell you very clearly what they DON’T believe–no instrumental music, no infant baptism, etc…
The few positive belief statements they make are the necessity of baptismal regeneration and that anyone who doesn’t hold to their 5 point plan of salvation and who doesn’t participate weekly in the 5 acts of worship is damned. They also believe that one can lose his/her salvation.
Part of the problem with the anti CoC is that they don’t really have a coherent statement of their beliefs. They can tell you very clearly what they DON’T believe–no instrumental music, no infant baptism, etc…
The few positive belief statements they make are the necessity of baptismal regeneration and that anyone who doesn’t hold to their 5 point plan of salvation and who doesn’t participate weekly in the 5 acts of worship is damned. They also believe that one can lose his/her salvation.
P
Pjs2ejs
Guest
Calvinism’s salvation is very different than Catholocisms. They believe that the person has no control over their salvation. They contend that God already chose who He would save and if you believe, then you were saved and if you don’t, then you weren’t saved. And that God’s grace was the reason for your human choice, not a decision on your part at any level.
Catholicism’s salvation is faith through love offered as a gift from God. True, without God’s grace, we would never be able to choose the right path, but that there is a personal choice to accept the gift.
Catholicism’s salvation is faith through love offered as a gift from God. True, without God’s grace, we would never be able to choose the right path, but that there is a personal choice to accept the gift.
S
Spirithound
Guest
I would hesitate to say that all that is bad about you is yours alone, because you are made in God’s image. I don’t know whether this contradicts my belief that a person is responsible for their sins…
S
sarks
Guest
That is a very helpful article. Thanks. …lots to think about…
S
sarks
Guest
That quote is from the catechism. Is justification inextricably linked to the moment of baptism or can it occur at a different time than baptism does?
A
Alexius
Guest
It’s called “monergism” and I’m pretty sure it was condemned long ago (probably at Orange in 529)…
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
S
SoonerServant
Guest
I think you have been mislead by someone. We believe that all good things come from God and all evil is of man’s own chosing. Mankind has knowledge of good and evil due to Eve’s eating from the tree of good and evil. It is written:“For God knows that if you eat of it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Thus, man is not born with sin, but the knowledge of good and evil. This is the “moral fiber” contained in everyone. But, original sin is for another thread. Just clearing up a little confusion.
S
SoonerServant
Guest
Uh, this should answer the question.
“No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” Acts 15:11
Grace is the favor of God on someone. God found favor in mankind due to his great love for us. So he sent his only begotten son. Faith is the belief in something or someone backed by works. Not to say that works are things like preaching to thousands of ppl or going door to door delievering the message. It could also be someone simply living the christian lifestyle, as defined by the bible. But, hopefully as your faith grows you will become able to go and do greater acts of faith. Just like the Apostles in “Acts”
“No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” Acts 15:11
Grace is the favor of God on someone. God found favor in mankind due to his great love for us. So he sent his only begotten son. Faith is the belief in something or someone backed by works. Not to say that works are things like preaching to thousands of ppl or going door to door delievering the message. It could also be someone simply living the christian lifestyle, as defined by the bible. But, hopefully as your faith grows you will become able to go and do greater acts of faith. Just like the Apostles in “Acts”
S
sarks
Guest
Again from the catechism:
But perhaps the initial grace is strong enough to free a person’s will so that he can make a free choice. Perhaps the initial grace moves a man from bondage to a state of freedom similar to that in which Adam committed the original sin.
Does that even make sense? Is that part of the difference between the Catholic and Reformed positions?
I agree that in theory man could reject God’s grace. But I also believe that if a person has been freed from bondage to sin/sinfulness by that grace, then he simply won’t reject the glorious grace. Hmm… Guess that leaves me with an initial irresistable grace.
But perhaps the initial grace is strong enough to free a person’s will so that he can make a free choice. Perhaps the initial grace moves a man from bondage to a state of freedom similar to that in which Adam committed the original sin.
Does that even make sense? Is that part of the difference between the Catholic and Reformed positions?
M
mikeledes
Guest
Are you a member of the Church of Christ? What is your view on baptism and salvation?
God Bless,
Michael
J
Janet_S
Guest
Most Protestants can summarize their beliefs about salvation in this way:
“We are saved by grace, alone, through faith, alone, because of Christ, alone.”
Catholics can summarize their beliefs in a similar way:
“We are saved by grace and our response to that grace with our free will, through faith and a life of obedience that testifies to that faith, because of Christ and the Church He established.”
St Thomas More likened salvation to this: If you were trapped in a well and someone tossed you a rope, you would have to grab the rope in order to get yourself out of the well.
Maybe not all Protestants deny the idea of free will, but Luther did. It’s ironic that the man promoting “freedom” for Christians denies the existance of free will. But that is what he taught.
Catholics believe God wants us to come to Him and to love Him freely. That’s why the idea of free will is and always has been an important part of the Christian faith.
“We are saved by grace, alone, through faith, alone, because of Christ, alone.”
Catholics can summarize their beliefs in a similar way:
“We are saved by grace and our response to that grace with our free will, through faith and a life of obedience that testifies to that faith, because of Christ and the Church He established.”
St Thomas More likened salvation to this: If you were trapped in a well and someone tossed you a rope, you would have to grab the rope in order to get yourself out of the well.
Maybe not all Protestants deny the idea of free will, but Luther did. It’s ironic that the man promoting “freedom” for Christians denies the existance of free will. But that is what he taught.
Catholics believe God wants us to come to Him and to love Him freely. That’s why the idea of free will is and always has been an important part of the Christian faith.
J
jemfinch
Guest
The Sacraments are for man, not for God. God can choose to dispense His grace however He wills: we can see in the Bible an example where a man was justified and given supernatural grace and the life of the Holy Spirit apart from baptism (Cornelius, in Acts 10). But it is clear from Scripture and Tradition that baptism is the sacrament of justification, that is, the sacrament in which we become part of the Body of Christ, where our sins are washed away, and where salvation efficaciously begins.
We can recognize that God can and sometimes does work outside the bounds of His Sacraments, but we cannot preach anything but the normal means by which God has promised His grace.
Jeremy
S
sarks
Guest
I was wondering the same thing. This sounds exactly like something I would have heard growing up. Are you explaining Catholic doctrine or Church of Christ doctrine? What have I misunderstood? COC dogma or the truth? (And no, they are NOT the same thing.)
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