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MariaG
Guest
Respectfully, the Catholic Church does in fact “base” it’s meanings off of scripture. “Base” being in parenthesis because the Church was born before scripture was written.
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MariaG
Guest
:tiphat: You are welcome.
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sb981
Guest
There are branches of the CoC. Most of the NI/anti/hardline congregations do not accept the use of musical instruments. They also do no support orphanages, schools, etc. You’re correct that they don’t accept original sin.
They do accept baptismal regeneration, but because there’s no developed theology of the CoC, their definition may be different than any other denomination’s.
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sarks
Guest
Good grief, SoonerServant. No one meant that you shouldn’t try to also understand and accept the biblical meanings of words and concepts. The point was that when we have a conversation, it will go much more smoothly if we understand each other rather than talking past each other.
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apophasis
Guest
According to the Apostle Paul justification is that judicial act of God whereby He acquits the believing sinner of guilt and clothes him with the righteousness of Christ on the sole condition of personal faith which apprehends and appropriates Christ and shows its life and power by good works, as a good tree bringing forth good fruits.
Now therein lies the difference between the RC and Pauline (Biblical) conception of justification. In Rome’s religious system of submission, justification is a gradual process conditioned by baptism and good works (which includes its sacramental system). But according to the “gospel” delivered to the Gentiles by Paul, justification is a single act of God, followed (not prefaced) by experiential sanctification. A justification based upon the redemptive work of Christ on the cross (Rom. 3:24), conditioned by personal faith, and subsequently manifested by good works (Eph. 2:8-10).
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Janet_S
Guest
RC vs Biblical conception? No, the RC conception of justification is Biblical. What you falsely attribute to Paul is actually “Paul according to Martin Luther.” Do you read the whole Bible or only the parts that support your brand of Protestant theology?
HOW WE ARE SAVED ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE
(faith? grace ? baptism? hope? works? obedience? Love? sanctification?)
BY FAITH
1 Cor 1:21; Rom 3:28; Rom 10:10
BY GRACE
Eph 2:8-9; Rom 3:24; Eph 2:4-6
WORKS–
Matt 16:24-27; 1 Tim 4:16; James 2:24; James 1:21-22; James 5:20
BY BAPTISM
Acts: 2:40-41; Rom 6:4; 1 Peter 3:21; John 3:5
BY HOPE
Rom 8:24; Eph 1:11-12; Col 1:5-6; Titus 3:6-7; Heb 3:6; Heb 6:11
BY OBEDIENCE
Deu 7:9-10; John 3:36; Acts 5:32; Heb 5:9; Matt 7:21;
1 Peter 1: 2; Rev 12:17
BY LOVE
1 Cor 8:3; 2 Thess 2:10; 1 Cor 16:22; Jam 1:12-15; James 2:5; Luke 10:25-37; John 14:15; John 15:10; 1 Cor 2:9; 1 Cor 13:1-2; 1 Cor 13:13
LOVE IS OBEDIENCE
1Jn 5:3; 2 Jn 1:6
BY ENDURANCE
Luke 21:19; Heb 10:36; Matt 24:12-13
BY SANCTIFICATION
Heb 13:12; Acts 20:32; 1 Cor 1:2; Rom 6:22; Heb 2:11; Heb 10:9; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thess 2:13
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kaycee
Guest
Exactly! We are declared righteous by the works of another! By Grace through Faith (not just, mental assent).
In Fact the true Gospel will bring up the natural objection that works play no part in Justification and we can party on. Paul answers this objection in Romans chapter 6.
Paul thought that folks would naturally object to his doctrine of justification because it seems to undermine moral living. And here is the point: No one objects to the Roman Catholic doctrine of justification for that reason. And the reason is that the Roman Catholic teaching is not subject to that objection. The RC Gospel is not Pauls Gospel.
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Mickey
Guest
You are correct here. The New Testament of the Catholic Church is:
The four Gospels
St Paul’s Epistles
The Epistle to the Hebrews
The Epistles of St Peter
The Epistles of St John
The Epistle of St Jude
St John’s Revelation
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Bishopite
Guest
Punctiliar only juridical forensic justification is antithetical to Scripture. Protestants often quote Abraham as being justified in Gen 15:6 attempting to show him as being justified at this time when…
“Abram put his faith in the LORD, who credited it to him as an act of righteousness”
However, the problem with this position is Abraham according to Hebrews 11 a chapter on hagiography (praise of the Saints) proves Abraham’s faith was “justifying faith” being Heb 11 speaks of the Saints of old who were the righteous, how and why and in Abrahams can when he was deemed righteous before God.
Heb 11:8 says…
“By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, not knowing where he was to go.”
Heb 11:8 is quoting Gen 12:1-2 which is a problem for Protestants since obviously Gen 12 comes chronologically before Gen 15 and so then one who reads Hebrews 11:8 has to ask the question, if Abraham was according to Protestants justified in Gen 15:6, what kind of faith did Abraham have in Gen 12:1-2 being Heb 11:8 is clearly speaking of Abraham being seen by God as righteous? The answer is that Abraham was NOT justified in Gen 15:6 but as Heb 11:8 clearly indicates he had justifying faith back in Gen 12:1-2 when he took Sarai and his brothers son (Nephew) Lot and left Haran. Now, Abraham was justified in Gen 12:-12 as he obeyed God, however, he again was justified in Gen 15:6 because he continued to have faith and in Gen 17 Abram becomes Abraham when God changes his name and Sarai to Sarah and establishes a covenant with him. If at anytime in Gen 12,15 or 17 Abraham would have disobeyed God and chose to disobey what God told him to do then he would have not been justified in God’s site. So what does this prove? It proves according to Gen 12-17 and Heb 11 that Abrahams justification was not punctiliar only but that it was a process. And it shows God as a Father Abraham as his son who posses son-ship as God establishes a covenant with him as his son. God treats Abraham not strictly in juridical posture but as his son. Sure a father is also a judge but not only a judge more over as a father
How can you ignore such explicit verses in Scripture like Mark 16:16…“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
Acts 2:38…"Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.”
1 Peter 3:22-21…“who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
Notice how the OT figure of “water” being the type fulfills the anti-type of the NT “water” in baptism. That’s why Jesus said in John 3:5…“you must be born of water and the Spirit” and the early church fathers always included water and the Spirit as one unitive act of regeneration.
Incorrect again,
I’ve just shown how Abraham is the classic example of how justifcation is a process as is sanctification. If we look at Paul’s language in 1 Cor 9:24-27Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one.Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified."
Even Paul realized that even after running the Christian race of life, preaching to others he could be “disqualified” from the race or loose his salvation.
**And then there is Phil 2:12 where we “work out our salvation” How can we work out our salvation? **
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Bishopite
Guest
Is faith to you a verb?
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MariaG
Guest
Hi Sarks,
And here is another piece of advice, although you seem quite capable of sifting out the comments that make no sense.
Sometimes it is helpful to look at the profile if you are confused about an answer so you can see if the person is Catholic or not. Being aware however that some non-Catholics choose to put catholic with a small ‘c’ and some Catholics just don’t capitalize.
As you have seen, there are many who try to tell you what Catholics believe without really understanding what we believe in the first place.
And here is another piece of advice, although you seem quite capable of sifting out the comments that make no sense.
Sometimes it is helpful to look at the profile if you are confused about an answer so you can see if the person is Catholic or not. Being aware however that some non-Catholics choose to put catholic with a small ‘c’ and some Catholics just don’t capitalize.
As you have seen, there are many who try to tell you what Catholics believe without really understanding what we believe in the first place.
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mikeledes
Guest
To all the Protestants in this thread, please explain these verses:
**12"If he is a poor man, you shall not sleep with his pledge.
13"When the sun goes down you shall surely return the pledge to him, that he may sleep in his cloak and bless you; and it will be righteousness for you before the LORD your God. **
Psalm 106:30-31
30Then Phinehas stood up and interposed,
And so the plague was stayed.
31And it was reckoned to him for righteousness,
To all generations forever.
**12"If he is a poor man, you shall not sleep with his pledge.
13"When the sun goes down you shall surely return the pledge to him, that he may sleep in his cloak and bless you; and it will be righteousness for you before the LORD your God. **
Psalm 106:30-31
30Then Phinehas stood up and interposed,
And so the plague was stayed.
31And it was reckoned to him for righteousness,
To all generations forever.
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sarks
Guest
I may be the voice in the wilderness here, but I think it means exactly what it says. Those actions go on the “righteousness” side of the ledger. (Probably that is a bad analogy, but on the fly I can’t think of a better one.) Again, this isn’t the whole story. To get the entire picture, we need to understand that without God’s grace, no one can do the good act of returning the poor man’s cloak. And without God’s grace, Phinehas could not have slain the adulterers, thereby staying the plague.
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kaycee
Guest
In what sense? Dogmatic Faith?
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kaycee
Guest
In what sense? Dogmatic Faith?
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Bishopite
Guest
In the sense of being justified, which I would assume is dogmatic faith. Does one have to have an active faith rather than a mere mental faith?
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kaycee
Guest
The Faith that justifies produces works. A fig tree produces figs.
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Bishopite
Guest
That faith that justifies and produces works, are those works the same as the works done without a faith that justifies?
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kaycee
Guest
quite possibly, but with different motives
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SoonerServant
Guest
I’m not sure what you mean by “many Church of Christ churches” There is only one church of Christ. Any other that accepts different doctrine than that which was accepted at it’s establishment, is a splinter and is not associated with the church of Christ. I’m not sure what their stand is officially on whether you are saved at baptism, but I believe that your statement is correct. And yes, we do not believe in original sin.(Ezekiel 18:19-20) However, I said I was not sure on the church of Christ’s stand on salvation, this is to say that my view is probably different than that of theirs and yours. I believe you are saved when you believe, and that baptism is an act of obedience. Let’s look at it this way. A man hears the words of God, for the first time, and believes. He was taught that one who believes should be baptized. For it is symbolic of Jesus’ sacrifice and a symbol of the death of ones old self and the rising of ones new self in Christ. So, he rushes to the nearest church to find someone to baptize him. On the way, he crosses a street and gets hit by a drunk driver and dies. Is the man condemned? Surely not! It is you faith that brought you to His grace. Baptism is a fruit of your faith. It is something that brings honor to Him and makes His grace on you increase. What if the Word, the Gospel, was presented to someone by someone else who did not believe that baptism was nessecary to your salvation. This person believed that Jesus was the Son of God. And that He died for the remission of sins. And that he rose on the third day. And he confessed all these things. Now, should this person be punished in hell for all eternity for his ignorance, which was caused by the ignorance of another? I do not believe a just god would do something like this. It doesn’t fit the caracture of God all throughout the bible. It’s like not posting a speed limit and then giving the ppl who break the speed limit a ticket. But hey, that’s just an opinion.
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