Saved by What?

[sarks]

I’m not sure what you mean by “many Church of Christ churches” There is only one church of Christ. Any other that accepts different doctrine than that which was accepted at it’s establishment, is a splinter and is not associated with the church of Christ. I’m not sure what their stand is officially on whether you are saved at baptism, but I believe that your statement is correct. And yes, we do not believe in original sin.(Ezekiel 18:19-20) However, I said I was not sure on the church of Christ’s stand on salvation, this is to say that my view is probably different than that of theirs and yours. I believe you are saved when you believe, and that baptism is an act of obedience. Let’s look at it this way. A man hears the words of God, for the first time, and believes. He was taught that one who believes should be baptized. For it is symbolic of Jesus’ sacrifice and a symbol of the death of ones old self and the rising of ones new self in Christ. So, he rushes to the nearest church to find someone to baptize him. On the way, he crosses a street and gets hit by a drunk driver and dies. Is the man condemned? Surely not! It is you faith that brought you to His grace. Baptism is a fruit of your faith. It is something that brings honor to Him and makes His grace on you increase. What if the Word, the Gospel, was presented to someone by someone else who did not believe that baptism was nessecary to your salvation. This person believed that Jesus was the Son of God. And that He died for the remission of sins. And that he rose on the third day. And he confessed all these things. Now, should this person be punished in hell for all eternity for his ignorance, which was caused by the ignorance of another? I do not believe a just god would do something like this. It doesn’t fit the caracture of God all throughout the bible. It’s like not posting a speed limit and then giving the ppl who break the speed limit a ticket. But hey, that’s just an opinion.

SoonerServant, in spite of towing the party line about the “true church”, you are a million miles away from the COC when you say someone’s faith saves him before his obedience has a chance to kick in and when you say a person can be saved in spite of being taught incorrect doctrine. Haven’t you heard the sermons about the lying prophet of God?

Them’s Baptist words.

 

[Bishopite]

quite possibly, but with different motives

Possibly? I’m not trying to trick you just understand how you see all works as being equal. You are saying “works” in Scripture always means the same thing?

 

[kaycee]

Possibly? I’m not trying to trick you just understand how you see all works as being equal. You are saying “works” in Scripture always means the same thing?

I have not given much thought to the difference in works on either side of the cross.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[Bishopite]

[SoonerServant;1851514]I’m not sure what you mean by “many Church of Christ churches” There is only one church of Christ. Any other that accepts different doctrine than that which was accepted at it’s establishment, is a splinter and is not associated with the church of Christ.

Oh…I didn’t know that. Thanks. When was the Church of Christ established? I read not to long ago that the Church of Christ came from the Quakers. Am I correct?

I’m not sure what their stand is officially on whether you are saved at baptism, but I believe that your statement is correct. And yes, we do not believe in original sin.(Ezekiel 18:19-20)

Oh, good. Is that the official stance of the Church of Christ?

However, I said I was not sure on the church of Christ’s stand on salvation, this is to say that my view is probably different than that of theirs and yours.

Yes, it is.

I believe you are saved when you believe, and that baptism is an act of obedience.

Well, baptism is an act of obedience for sure, but is more than that and necessary that’s the question and Scripture seems clear on baptism being necessary and unitive with faith. Jesus used “faith” and “baptism” together in John 3:5 saying…“you must born of water and the Spirit” which indicates a unitive regenerative act of being born of water and the Spirit. That the Holy Spirit came down from above when Jesus was baptized, certainly is symbolic of a dove, but it shows us the unitive sense of baptism with the Holy Spirit as Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 2:38, Mt 28:20 and many other verses allude to in faith, baptism, regeneration and being saved.
Mark 16:16…“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

Let’s look at it this way. A man hears the words of God, for the first time, and believes. He was taught that one who believes should be baptized.
For it is symbolic of Jesus’ sacrifice and a symbol of the death of ones old self and the rising of ones new self in Christ. So, he rushes to the nearest church to find someone to baptize him. On the way, he crosses a street and gets hit by a drunk driver and dies. Is the man condemned? Surely not!

Of course God wouldn’t condemn that person. He doesn’t ask us to do the impossible. Interestingly, Catholicism calls that precise scenario you described as “baptism of desire” which means that person’s desire to do God’s will to be baptized was enough to be as if he was actually baptized. Like the thief on the cross who was, well, let’s say predisposed with nails stuck through his hands and feet and couldn’t be baptized but certainly would have if he physically could.

It is you faith that brought you to His grace. Baptism is a fruit of your faith. It is something that brings honor to Him and makes His grace on you increase. What if the Word, the Gospel, was presented to someone by someone else who did not believe that baptism was nessecary to your salvation. This person believed that Jesus was the Son of God. And that He died for the remission of sins. And that he rose on the third day. And he confessed all these things. Now, should this person be punished in hell for all eternity for his ignorance, which was caused by the ignorance of another?

But what you are assuming is that a person has to be the age of reason to know the gospel in order to have baptism, but Scripture and the early Church practiced padeo baptism. Many Protestant’s agree with Catholicism and baptize infants because it puts us into the covenant family of God as did circumcision in the OT-- Col 2:11-13…
In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ.
You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions;
Luke 12:48 says he who is given much is demanded, he who is given more much more is demanded. So even though baptism is objectively necessary for everyone, not everyone is culpable for those things they didn’t knowing do or ingore intentionally.

I do not believe a just god would do something like this. It doesn’t fit the caracture of God all throughout the bible. It’s like not posting a speed limit and then giving the ppl who break the speed limit a ticket. But hey, that’s just an opinion.

Right I agree. And that’s precisely what we Catholics believe also. Objectively something can be sinful or true, but subjectively it can also NOT be something a person is culpable for who doesn’t know it is required for their salvation.

 

[Bishopite]

kaycee;1852347]I have not given much thought to the difference in works on either side of the cross.

If you don’t know the distiction between personal works and works of charity in Scripture then how can you say that the Pauls gospel isn’t the Roman Catholic gospel? Post #64 quotes you saying that.

So…you don’t know the distinction between good and bad works in Scripture, yet you know the Catholic gospel isn’t Pauls gospel?

Perhaps you are simply taking what you’ve been (wrongly) told about Catholicism and making a prejudgement that’s without merit?

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

But why quote a verse without giving any explanation?
Yes, this is the verse often quoted, but read the passages again. Verse 8-9 speak of personal works which don’t save, that don’t justify.
Then read verse 10…For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works…

The passage distiguishes between bad personal works in verses 8-9 and good works given by God through grace in verse 10.

So how is Pauls gospel different from the Roman Catholic Church’s?

 

[mikeledes]

John 5:28-29

**28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. **

Galatians 6:7-9

**7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.

8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary**

Romans 2:6-7

6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Compare with Proverbs 11:18

18The wicked earns deceptive wages,
But he who sows righteousness gets a true reward.

These verses are pretty clear.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I’m not sure what you want to know about us specifically, but I’ll just rant a little.
We believe that the gifts God offers(aka His Grace) are for his children. And, if you haven’t been baptized, you are not one of His. Baptism give you the right to his grace, but it is the grace that saves you. We don’t believe in,“Once saved, always saved.” For example, in 2 Peter 22:21 “It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to.” What is it that could have been worse than being ignorant? Being foolish! To turn your back on God, is to spit in his face.

I agree with you on “Once Saved Always Saved.” I don’t believe Baptism establishes a right to His grace. I believe God’s saving grace is imparted through baptism.

God bless,
Michael

 

[kaycee]

If you don’t know the distiction between personal works and works of charity in Scripture then how can you say that the Pauls gospel isn’t the Roman Catholic gospel? Post #64 quotes you saying that.

So…you don’t know the distinction between good and bad works in Scripture, yet you know the Catholic gospel isn’t Pauls gospel?

Sorry, I assumed you knew what I meant. You obviously did not understand. I was grouping good works, works of righteousness, works of the law, under one category called “WORKS”. Specifically in reference to works and Faith.

Perhaps you are simply taking what you’ve been (wrongly) told about Catholicism and making a prejudgement that’s without merit?

No, I think i have a handle on it after 12 years of Catholic school.

But why quote a verse without giving any explanation?
Yes, this is the verse often quoted, but read the passages again. Verse 8-9 speak of personal works which don’t save, that don’t justify. Then read verse 10…For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works…

The passage distiguishes between bad personal works in verses 8-9 and good works given by God through grace in verse 10.

Strange, I dont see the words “personal works” vs “good works given by God”, anywhere in veres 8,9. Is that your private interpretation?

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. zero works, nada works, not works of ANY kind. Works create basis for boasting. No one works for a gift.

Your probably better off sticking to James. Its not working out for you in Ephesians.

So how is Pauls gospel different from the Roman Catholic Church’s?

Here is the problem. Paul, when he has completed his exposition of justification in the book of Romans, anticipates in the opening verse of chapter 6, an objection that he is sure people will have to his teaching. The objection is that people will say that his doctrine – his teaching about the way sinners are made right with God – undermines moral living. “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?” That is, if I am made right with God by what Christ did for me and not by what I do; if I am justified by faith in Christ and not by my own good works; if my standing with God rests not on my moral accomplishments to any degree but solely on Christ’s for me and in my place; if the good works I do before or after I become a Christian have nothing to do with my being a child of God and do not make me a child of God, then what is to keep me from kicking up my heels and enjoying my sins. Paul says, you will think that my view of justification cuts the legs out from under the demand to live a holy life, because you have just heard me say that how you live has nothing to do with your acceptance with God. You will think that I am left with no motive for a life of holiness and love.

Now, Paul has an answer for that. He is going to say that sanctification and justification are inseparable in the salvation God gives to man. God works not only to justify but to renew and restore, not only to change a person’s status before God (justification) but to transform his heart and life (sanctification). But that is not my point. My point is that Paul thought that folks would naturally object to his doctrine of justification because it seems to undermine moral living. And here is the point: No one objects to the Roman Catholic doctrine of justification for that reason. And the reason is that the Roman Catholic teaching is not subject to that objection. Precisely the reverse.

Justification/Sanctification/Salvation in the RCC is a different Gospel that what Paul taught in the God-Breathed scriptures.

 

[mikeledes]

Sorry, I assumed you knew what I meant. You obviously did not understand. I was grouping good works, works of righteousness, works of the law, under one category called “WORKS”. Specifically in reference to works and Faith.

No, I think i have a handle on it after 12 years of Catholic school.

Strange, I dont see the words “personal works” vs “good works given by God”, anywhere in veres 8,9. Is that your private interpretation?

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Your probably better off sticking to James. Its not working out for you in Ephesians.

Here is the problem. Paul, when he has completed his exposition of justification in the book of Romans, anticipates in the opening verse of chapter 6, an objection that he is sure people will have to his teaching. The objection is that people will say that his doctrine – his teaching about the way sinners are made right with God – undermines moral living. “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?” That is, if I am made right with God by what Christ did for me and not by what I do; if I am justified by faith in Christ and not by my own good works; if my standing with God rests not on my moral accomplishments to any degree but solely on Christ’s for me and in my place; if the good works I do before or after I become a Christian have nothing to do with my being a child of God and do not make me a child of God, then what is to keep me from kicking up my heels and enjoying my sins. Paul says, you will think that my view of justification cuts the legs out from under the demand to live a holy life, because you have just heard me say that how you live has nothing to do with your acceptance with God. You will think that I am left with no motive for a life of holiness and love.

Now, Paul has an answer for that. He is going to say that sanctification and justification are inseparable in the salvation God gives to man. God works not only to justify but to renew and restore, not only to change a person’s status before God (justification) but to transform his heart and life (sanctification). But that is not my point. My point is that Paul thought that folks would naturally object to his doctrine of justification because it seems to undermine moral living. And here is the point: No one objects to the Roman Catholic doctrine of justification for that reason. And the reason is that the Roman Catholic teaching is not subject to that objection. Precisely the reverse.

Justification/Sanctification/Salvation in the RCC is a different Gospel that what Paul taught in the God-Breathed scriptures.

If sanctification is necessary for salvation, how is that accomplished?

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

To all the Protestants in this thread, please explain these verses:

**12"If he is a poor man, you shall not sleep with his pledge.

13"When the sun goes down you shall surely return the pledge to him, that he may sleep in his cloak and bless you; and it will be righteousness for you before the LORD your God. **

Psalm 106:30-31

30Then Phinehas stood up and interposed,
And so the plague was stayed.
31And it was reckoned to him for righteousness,
To all generations forever.

What do these verses mean?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[MariaG]

No, I think i have a handle on it after 12 years of Catholic school.

Sorry, this really made me laugh. Unfortunately, you are not the first person who had years of Catholic education who deserves to get their money back for the poor job they recieved in understanding the Grace of God and the teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[mikeledes]

Sorry, this really made me laugh. Unfortunately, you are not the first person who had years of Catholic education who deserves to get their money back for the poor job they recieved in understanding the Grace of God and the teaching of the Catholic Church.

I agree! He obviously should ask for a refund.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[kaycee]

Sorry, this really made me laugh. Unfortunately, you are not the first person who had years of Catholic education who deserves to get their money back for the poor job they recieved in understanding the Grace of God and the teaching of the Catholic Church.

I paid dearly for those bruises recieved from the business end of a nuns clicker! :yup:

 

[mikeledes]

I paid dearly for those bruises recieved from the business end of a nuns clicker! :yup:

Now I understand everything! You don’t have to be Dr. Phil to see it.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[kaycee]

If sanctification is necessary for salvation, how is that accomplished?

God bless,
Michael

Its not necessary.

Rom 5:1 1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

Rom 12:22 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Take up our Cross daily.

John 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

 

[mikeledes]

Its not necessary.

Rom 5:1 1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

Rom 12:22 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Take up our Cross daily.

John 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

My response to this is Hebrews 12:14 (NASB)

14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord

Pursuing involves effort and sanctification is necessary for seeing the Lord (i.e. final salvation).

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Bishopite]

kaycee;1853802]Sorry, I assumed you knew what I meant. You obviously did not understand. I was grouping good works, works of righteousness, works of the law, under one category called “WORKS”. Specifically in reference to works and Faith.

I still don’t know where you are coming from. Again, explain to me what “works” mean in Scripture?

No, I think i have a handle on it after 12 years of Catholic school.

I’ve found that most people don’t learn the indepth arguments for and against the faith they are taught when they are young. It is only when they become adults that they really juxtapose what they were taught.

Strange, I dont see the words “personal works” vs “good works given by God”, anywhere in veres 8,9. Is that your private interpretation?

Come now, you have to know more about hermenuetics than this? Scripture doesn’t always use specific words, but concepts, remember James 2:17-24? Protestants often defend sola fide yet ingore isn’t explicitness…not saved by faith alone.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. zero works, nada works, not works of ANY kind. Works create basis for boasting. No one works for a gift.

Why proof-text? You assume Catholicism teaches a boasting of ones works for salvation, which is laughable. I’ve yet to see any official Catholic document that proves your assertion.

Your probably better off sticking to James. Its not working out for you in Ephesians.

I don’t just read the Bible and interpret it as I see fit, that’s what 2 Peter 1:20 condemns. That’s why Jesus established a Church with a hiearchal structure that is lead by the Holy Spirit to delve into what Scripture means. Just as the Catholic bishops in the council of Nicea 325 created a Greek word *homoosius *and a Latin word Triunitos (Trinity), to better explain the positional meaning of how God the Father to the Son and Spirit, Son to God and Spirit, and Spirit to Son and God. Scripture I’m hoping you know, isn’t clear on this issue.

Here is the problem. Paul, when he has completed his exposition of justification in the book of Romans, anticipates in the opening verse of chapter 6, an objection that he is sure people will have to his teaching. The objection is that people will say that his doctrine – his teaching about the way sinners are made right with God – undermines moral living. “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?” That is, if I am made right with God by what Christ did for me and not by what I do; if I am justified by faith in Christ and not by my own good works; if my standing with God rests not on my moral accomplishments to any degree but solely on Christ’s for me and in my place;

Let me stop you here and say that you are incorrect that we are soley justified in a forensic juridical manner. That God is strictly a judge and Jesus your lawyer isn’t the Biblical concept of justification. God is a Father we are His children, sure a Father is a judge, in one sense, but a Father is moreover one who expects obedience in the covenant family and treats them as such. God doesn’t just justifiably cover you or impute righteousness to you, He does more than just imputation God infuses His grace, Himself in you…2 Peter 1:4 we are partakers of His divine nature. When God said let there be light there was light, when God says you are righteous, He means it! He infused righteousness in us first by His freely given grace and if we have faith and obedience. Read Romans 1:5 and 16:26 sort of book ends of what faith we have to have, obedient faith, that’s the faith that justifies.

if the good works I do before or after I become a Christian have nothing to do with my being a child of God and do not make me a child of God, then what is to keep me from kicking up my heels and enjoying my sins. Paul says, you will think that my view of justification cuts the legs out from under the demand to live a holy life, because you have just heard me say that how you live has nothing to do with your acceptance with God. You will think that I am left with no motive for a life of holiness and love.

Well, at what point can I still sin and still be a child of God? That’s a vexing question for Protestants indeed.

 

[Bishopite]

God works not only to justify but to renew and restore, not only to change a person’s status before God (justification) but to transform his heart and life (sanctification). But that is not my point. My point is that Paul thought that folks would naturally object to his doctrine of justification because it seems to undermine moral living. And here is the point: No one objects to the Roman Catholic doctrine of justification for that reason. And the reason is that the Roman Catholic teaching is not subject to that objection. Precisely the reverse.

Justification/Sanctification/Salvation in the RCC is a different Gospel that what Paul taught in the God-Breathed scriptures

**

How do you know the Scriptures are “God-Breathed?”**

You saying we Catholics do good works therefore God owes us salvation? That’s what the pharasies did, they thought if they circumcized God owed them. Catholicism never has taught that and if you think so, then you have been told a whopper of a lie.

Council of Orange 529 against pelagianism…

CANON 18. That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.

CANON 19. That a man can be saved only when God shows mercy. Human nature, even though it remained in that sound state in which it was created, could be no means save itself, without the assistance of the Creator; hence since man cannot safe-guard his salvation without the grace of God, which is a gift, how will he be able to restore what he has lost without the grace of God?

CANON 20. That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/council

Paul has an answer for that. He is going to say that sanctification and justification are inseparable in the salvation God gives to man.

If the two are inseparable then obviously, logically, deductively both are needed for salvation, yes?

James affirms this, faith without works [of charity] is dead faith. And who separates them? Not Catholicism, Protestants separate them, starting with Luther.

And, who splits justification and sanctification? Not Catholicism, it’s Protestant who distiguish between the two. Catholicism says you are justified as you are being sanctified. 1 Cor 6:11—"but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

 

[Bishopite]

If sanctification is necessary for salvation, how is that accomplished?

God bless,
Michael

Great question. That’s the Protestant dilemma.

 

[Janet_S]

Does going to a Catholic school for 12 years make you an expert on Catholicism? I don’t think so. The same thing happened to me. I went to a Catholic school for 7 years, left the Church at age 14, became an atheist/agnostic, returned to the Church at age 41, and started seriously studying about the Catholic faith about 5 years ago. Before this time of serious study, I truly “didn’t know what I didn’t know” concerning the Catholic Church.

It’s unfortunate that many people reject Catholicism after attending Catholic schools for years. Part of the reason this happens may be due to the deterioration in the Catholic school systems, which is another subject altogether. But you must also consider that when you are a child in school, your mind moves far away from thoughts of religion and more eagerly pursues “worldly” goals. I know this was true for me.

So now when I hear someone say “I know all about the Catholic Church because I went to a Catholic school,” I am not so sure. I compare it to my experience with football–I have been to hundreds of football games in my life, but I still couldn’t tell you the rules of the game. Don’t ask me what an “end zone” or a “first down” is, because I just don’t know. I never took the time or had the interest to learn.