Saved Christians,Bible and the WORD

[Rightlydivide]

Oh, I’m sorry, I overlooked where you were saying 27 books. There is evidence that Origen accepted the same 27 books, but this isn’t an official canon list by him.

My apologies, I overlooked the 27 books reference.

Why are you getting upset, I wasn’t trying to insult intelligence. Apologies.

Yes, but I don’t take sides. I’m not taking any of the various Protestant sides, nor Catholic nor Orthodox sides. I just like history.

God bless and take care.

 

[EVANGELION]

God bless and take care.

Oh!

Okay, I guess I’ll go somewhere else.

God bless and take care.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Oh!

Okay, I guess I’ll go somewhere else.

God bless and take care.

No no. In other words, God bless you. Take care. It is me being nice. I am not very good at it. You stick around. Lots of history to be discussed.

 

[EVANGELION]

No no. In other words, God bless you. Take care. It is me being nice. I am not very good at it. You stick around. Lots of history to be discussed.

Oh!

Well, in that case, what’s on the agenda?

 

[Harpazo]

The Eastern Orthodox churches did not exist as a separate entity from the Catholic Church until after 1054 A.D., so claiming it was made by the Orthodox churches doesn’t hold water. And, by the way, there were other lists before St. Athanasius.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Welcome Evangelion. I really like your username as I am teaching myself Greek.

I’m not too sure about that. The Orthodox Churches did exist, because in the East, the Churches called themselves “Orthodox” whereas in the West, the they were more apt to use “Catholic.” You can find this in the writings of many Eastern Saints within the first couple hundred years of the Church. It is not an invention of the unfortunate split between the Eastern Churches and the Roman Church. They have lines going back to the foundations of their Patriarchates, and Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria claim their founders to be Apostles. So, they are Apostolic.

However, both are in schism from one another and both see each other as sister Churches, seeking to heal the dreadful split.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

That’s an interesting post. I believe the Old Testament saints were saved by Jesus Christ (Romans 3:23-26, Hebrews). How do you think OT sinners were saved if the Catholic Church started with Matthew 16?

Gabriel of 12:
Well according to Sacred Scripture and our Catholic profession of faith Jesus descended to the dead and set the captives free; here read it for yourself;

1Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered 5 for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19
In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, 6
20
who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. 21
**This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. **

underdog;
Romans 3:23-26

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Gabriel of 12;
As far as the communion of Saints is concerned the God I worship is the God of the living not of the dead, for whether awake or asleep, they are all alive to God.

So tell me; which God do you serve the God of all the liviing or do you deny living after death. For example here is the old testament prophet and law giver revealed in the New testament coversing with Jesus himself with Peter, James and John 3 eye witnesses.

Mark 9:4
Then Elijah appeared to them along with Moses, and they were conversing with Jesus.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I thought the Catholic Church started at Pentecost according to Catholics on this site. Jesus appeared in the OT and He is also eternal.

Jesus built his church upon Peter Mathew 16:16-19, Jesus died and resurrected, at Pentecost, Peter, the blessed Virgin Mary and the other apostles recieved Power from on high, to go out begin the mission entrusted to them by Jesus at Pentecost when thousands were saved at Pentecost the birthday of the Catholic church.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Which being interpreted means all Christians had the Old Testament and the writings that would become the New Test. and they had the apostles, prophets, evangelists and pastors and teachers to lead and guide them. “He gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, shepherds and teachers; for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.”–Ephesians 4 (Do you like that passage?) And all those believers everywhere with all those leaders shared Jesus with their world and people were getting saved like crazy and the loved each other and celebrated with the Lord’s Supper and Baptism. Then as time went on, some people got cold, became more interested in perpetuating systems and power, and so in some places ‘church’ is more like a funeral home than it is an alive place of ministry and praise and people finding Jesus.

I understand what your trying to say, but it does not confirm your 20th century Christian theology from the scriptures. Here’s what I mean, the only living body of believers recorded since the first century when these scriptures were written is the Catholic church who compiled these letters and with the help and guarantee from the Holy Spirit confirmed the New Testament 400 years later. Do you know the founder of your Christian church and or doctrine? As far as the Church, well here are a few scriptures from the book you quoted from;

Ephesians 1: 22 **And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, 11 the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way. **
Ephesians 3:8 To me, the very least of all the holy ones, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the inscrutable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light [for all] 5 what is the plan of the mystery hidden from ages past in God who created all things, 10
**so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities 6 in the heavens. **

Ephesians 5: 27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

1 Corinthians 12: 25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. 26 If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy. 27 5 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it.

 

[Martin777]

I understand what your trying to say, but it does not confirm your 20th century Christian theology from the scriptures. Here’s what I mean, the only living body of believers recorded since the first century when these scriptures were written is the Catholic church who compiled these letters and with the help and guarantee from the Holy Spirit confirmed the New Testament 400 years later. Do you know the founder of your Christian church and or doctrine? As far as the Church, well here are a few scriptures from the book you quoted from;

Ephesians 1: 22 **And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, 11 the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way. **
Ephesians 3:8 To me, the very least of all the holy ones, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the inscrutable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light [for all] 5 what is the plan of the mystery hidden from ages past in God who created all things, 10
**so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities 6 in the heavens. **

Ephesians 5: 27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

1 Corinthians 12: 25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. 26 If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy. 27 5 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it.

There is a basic misunderstanding that chronological succession equals authority. Authority only extends as far is it is faithful to Scripture. That is why there are churches in the darkest jungles, established by missionaries with no connection to the Roman church, where the elders are under the authority of God’s eternal word and are the spititual authorities in the church. And there are churches large and small like that throughout the world–masses of them–where the ‘homilies’ as the RCC likes to call them, are alive and extending life to those who hear. people are being saved, baptized, and celebrating with communion. In your ‘succession’ there could easily have been multiple instances of popes and cardnals that were Christian in name only, with no true personal knowledge of the Savior. Jesus guaranteed that His Church would prevail, and it will, with all the elect, chosen “before the foundation of the world” (Eph 1) But there will be many who say “Lord, we did that and that and we did it in your name” Adn He will say “I never knew you” Where do you stand…you personally?

 

[WindGirl]

The Church is the pillar…not the scriptures. Typical danceing around what the Scriptures say, to try to make them say what you want them to say.

The church is the pillar and ground of what? The truth. What is the truth? Jesus: thy word is truth. John 17:17. What in the world do you think the authority of the church is supposed to be? Themselves. Not its is the Scriptures. They ARE the infallible word of God, you know. That Scripture really doesn’t say what you want it to.

 

[firmfoundation]

I understand what your trying to say, but it does not confirm your 20th century Christian theology from the scriptures. Here’s what I mean, the only living body of believers recorded since the first century when these scriptures were written is the Catholic church who compiled these letters and with the help and guarantee from the Holy Spirit confirmed the New Testament 400 years later. Do you know the founder of your Christian church and or doctrine? As far as the Church, well here are a few scriptures from the book you quoted from;

Ephesians 1: 22 **And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, 11 the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way. **
Ephesians 3:8 To me, the very least of all the holy ones, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the inscrutable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light [for all] 5 what is the plan of the mystery hidden from ages past in God who created all things, 10
**so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities 6 in the heavens. **

Ephesians 5: 27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

1 Corinthians 12: 25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. 26 If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy. 27 5 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it.

I am all about the Church! The Universal Church is comprised of all true beleivers throughout the last 2000 years. There are true believers within the Catholic Church, if they are truly trusting in Jesus Christ and His death for their salvation, and there are true believers outside that church, if…God chose those on whom He would set His love, long before the world began, and who can resist His effectual call (Romans 8)

 

[firmfoundation]

The church is the pillar and ground of what? The truth. What is the truth? Jesus: thy word is truth. John 17:17. What in the world do you think the authority of the church is supposed to be? Themselves. Not its is the Scriptures. They ARE the infallible word of God, you know. That Scripture really doesn’t say what you want it to.

So right. Christ is the Chief Cornerstone, according to Eph, and the foundation is the apostles and prophets. And notice that He gave us all the leadership gifts we needed to grow: “It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”

I love the church.

What city do you live in?

 

[firmfoundation]

There is a basic misunderstanding that chronological succession equals authority. Authority only extends as far is it is faithful to Scripture. That is why there are churches in the darkest jungles, established by missionaries with no connection to the Roman church, where the elders are under the authority of God’s eternal word and are the spititual authorities in the church. And there are churches large and small like that throughout the world–masses of them–where the ‘homilies’ as the RCC likes to call them, are alive and extending life to those who hear. people are being saved, baptized, and celebrating with communion. In your ‘succession’ there could easily have been multiple instances of popes and cardnals that were Christian in name only, with no true personal knowledge of the Savior. Jesus guaranteed that His Church would prevail, and it will, with all the elect, chosen “before the foundation of the world” (Eph 1) But there will be many who say “Lord, we did that and that and we did it in your name” Adn He will say “I never knew you” Where do you stand…you personally?

You know, the Jews had that same kind of cockiness that said, “We are Jews, we are of the circumcision, the rest of you are dogs and outside of God’s plan…” And Jesus said a lot about what God is really looking for to break their pride. It didn’t work, though.

 

[WindGirl]

So right. Christ is the Chief Cornerstone, according to Eph, and the foundation is the apostles and prophets. And notice that He gave us all the leadership gifts we needed to grow: “It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”

I love the church.

What city do you live in?

If you’re a Catholic, we differ as to what the church is. Any church that doesn’t abide by the Scriptures and even contradicts them can rightly be called the pillar and ground of truth.

I prefer not to give out much personal info on the net.

 

[nickthequick]

But if the institution, the visible church, is Christ as He wills it…what then??

if the church is Christ? it clearly is not. Chris is perfect, not the church. We are the bride of Christ, we do not have his authority. We submit to Christ.

That being said, the church is vital. Elders (or Bishops) are biblically necessary to the church to function properly, and very few churches follow Paul (and Peters) outline for what that office should be. There should be a plurality of local bishops that meet the qualification set (2nd Timothy 3 and Titus 1) and function as the leaders of the church. Churches don’t do this right. My church fails in this aspect.

Basically (sorry for the tangent) people are flawed, the church is made of people.

 

[elvisman]

if the church is Christ? it clearly is not. Chris is perfect, not the church. We are the bride of Christ, we do not have his authority. We submit to Christ.

That being said, the church is vital. Elders (or Bishops) are biblically necessary to the church to function properly, and very few churches follow Paul (and Peters) outline for what that office should be. There should be a plurality of local bishops that meet the qualification set (2nd Timothy 3 and Titus 1) and function as the leaders of the church. Churches don’t do this right. My church fails in this aspect.

Basically (sorry for the tangent) people are flawed, the church is made of people.

**WRONG. **
You have a very flawed understanding of Jesus’ relationship with his Church. He identifies his very self with it:

Acts 9:3-6
On his journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. **
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting* me******?" ***
**He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. **
***Now get up and go into the city and you will be told what you must do." ***

Luke 10:16
**“Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

 

[nickthequick]

**WRONG. **
You have a very flawed understanding of Jesus’ relationship with his Church. He identifies his very self with it:

Acts 9:3-6
On his journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. **
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting* me******?" ***
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
***Now get up and go into the city and you will be told what you must do." ***

Luke 10:16
***“Whoever listens to ***you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

I cannot deny he identifies himself with it. Our difference is in what we view as the church. To me, the church is those who put their faith in Christ. The Church is not an institution, it is people.

Jesus takes personal offense when anyone and treated badly. We are all made in Gods image, but he takes in even more personally when it is Israel/The Church (“his people”) Just because something is flawed doesn’t mean God doesn’t care. I can’t deny God identifies with the church, you can’t deny it is flawed.

(and you have and odd obsession with colors)

 

[elvisman]

I cannot deny he identifies himself with it. Our difference is in what we view as the church. To me, the church is those who put their faith in Christ. The Church is not an institution, it is people.

Jesus takes personal offense when anyone and treated badly. We are all made in Gods image, but he takes in even more personally when it is Israel/The Church (“his people”) Just because something is flawed doesn’t mean God doesn’t care. I can’t deny God identifies with the church, you can’t deny it is flawed.

(and you have and odd obsession with colors)

In Matt. 16:18, Jesus says emphatically:
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."

Later, in Matt. 18:15-18, he goes on to say:
**"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. **
**If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ **
**If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. **
Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Finally, the knockout punch:
John 17:11, 20-23
**“And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be ****one ****just as we are.” **

John 17: 20-23
**"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, **
**so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. **
**And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, **I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.”

Jesus built ONE Church and intended for his Church to be united as ONE - not the tens of thousands of splintered factions that is Protestantism.

PS - Don’t like colors? Get over it.

 

[nickthequick]

In Matt. 16:18, Jesus says emphatically:
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."

Later, in Matt. 18:15-18, he goes on to say:
**"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. **
**If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ **
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Finally, the knockout punch:
John 17:11, 20-23
**“And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be **one **just as we are.” **

John 17: 20-23
**"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, **
**so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. **
**And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, **I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.”

Jesus built ONE Church and intended for his Church to be united as ONE - not the tens of thousands of splintered factions that is Protestantism.

PS - Don’t like colors? Get over it.

I have no problem with what you said. The Church should be one.
The question is weather oneness is in the hierarchy, or a common love and communion. That is a question we disagree on, and should not argue over (i’m to lazy to get out my bible, but i know it somewhere says to avoid useless controversies).

Bottom line we are brothers in Christ.
I may consider you apart of the same “church” as me and you may not.

Peace be with you until the very end of the age.

 

[nickthequick]

I’d say this whole internet debate thing is horrid, but whatever (and i’m colorblind).