Saved Only Through Rome?

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JGC:
We agree on holding the catholic faith, if anyone asks then the answers they get from me will pretty much come straight from the cathechism - a sure norm for teaching the faith JPII, or as you put it the 200 proof faith. Or do you have a problem with a document prepared following a Ecumenical Council, endorsed by the current bishop of Rome following consultation with ‘the whole episcopate’

I’ve said this in many posts. It’s how it’s said. I accept ‘no salvation outside the Church’ - its catholic teaching, I just follow the Pope and the catechism i.e Orthodox and all Christians are in some way joined to Church. I find it strange that the no salvation if you are not a Roman Catholic types completely ignore the teaching here of the current Bishop of Rome.:confused: 😦
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Praise God for you brother!!:clapping: Your love for our Church is contagious, keep defending her!
 
"Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.” John 9:41 (RSV)

Does not Jesus Himself answer this question. You have no guilt if you haven’t seen the Truth of the Church, thus God can still save you.

There are other passages which allude to the same Truth, God can save anyone no matter where he is! 👍
 
Who was it that said: The Church has many that God doesn’t have and God has many that the Church doesn’t have.
 
Juxtaposer,

Your best source of information is the current Catechism. There are some quotes from it that I can give, but I will see if I can copy it from an on-line source as I don’t want to type it all out by hand.

One short summary is: not all who are going to heaven are Catholics. But when they get there, they all will be!
 
here’s a related question to get things heated up - do you think we catholics will find things that surprise us ‘when we all get to heaven’?

if so - what?
 
CANman said:
"Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.” John 9:41 (RSV)

Does not Jesus Himself answer this question. You have no guilt if you haven’t seen the Truth of the Church, thus God can still save you.
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On the other hand, the Lord also says that even those who are ignorant of the truth but do wrong will be punished for their wickedness (albeit less strictly than those who knew the truth). Mere proof-texting is not going to shed much light on this matter.
 
where does He say this?

oh, i see… it’s a link.

yes, but it’s a light sentence. perhaps a purgatorial sentence?
 
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GrzeszDeL:
On the other hand, the Lord also says that even those who are ignorant of the truth but do wrong will be punished for their wickedness (albeit less strictly than those who knew the truth). Mere proof-texting is not going to shed much light on this matter.
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Having guilt and being punished are two different things.
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jeffreedy789:
here’s a related question to get things heated up - do you think we catholics will find things that surprise us ‘when we all get to heaven’?

if so - what?
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jeffreedy789, sounds like a great topic for a new thread.

I love what the new catechism has to say on this topic. It just seems like it’s different than what was previously taught.
 
Todd Easton:
The holy synod decreed that pagans and Jews are to have the truth of the gospel preached and expounded to them frequently and in such a way, and they are to be treated with such charity and kindness, that the truth of the gospel becomes manifest to them and they come to a recongnition their errors. So, the pagans and Jews who are damned are those for whom the truth of Christ and his Church is manifest yet they reject it.
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Not that I wish to take issue with the value of charity and kindness, but I do not think that you are being entirely fair to the sense of the Conciliar texts as a whole. Elsewhere in the canons of the same council we read that
Council of Florence:
With regard to children, since the danger of death is often present and the only remedy available to them is the sacrament of baptism by which they are snatched away from the dominion of the devil and adopted as children of God, it admonishes that sacred baptism is not to be deferred for forty or eighty days or any other period of time in accordance with the usage of some people, but it should be conferred as soon as it conveniently can; and if there is imminent danger of death, the child should be baptized straightaway without any delay, even by a lay man or a woman in the form of the church, if there is no priest, as is contained more fully in the decree on the Armenians.
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If Jews and pagans who have not heard the gospel preached in charity and kindness can be saved, then surely babies, even unbaptized babies, are in the clear, no? Given, then, that the council claims that babies must be baptized in order to be saved, I see little reason to suppose that the council means for us to understand that unevangelized Jews and pagans (and by extension, non-Catholics in general) can be saved without coming into the Catholic Church.
 
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Juxtaposer:
Having guilt and being punished are two different things.
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No doubt, but it is not obvious to me what that has to do with anything which we are discussing here. If there is some broader point which you are trying to make, I am afraid that you will have to spell it out more clearly for me. :o
 
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JGC:
I find it strange that the no salvation if you are not a Roman Catholic types completely ignore the teaching here of the current Bishop of Rome.
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Horse feathers. I believe in the Catholic faith which has been handed down to me from of old. I am pretty sure that John Paul II does as well, but if he does not, then it is so much the worse for him. Pope Boniface VII has already infallibly declared that we must be subject to the Pope in order to be saved. John Paul II could not change this fact even if he wanted to (not that I am at all convinced that he does want to). Those who are truly loyal to the bishop of Rome are the ones who agree that there is no salvation outside of communion with the Roman Pontiff.
 
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Juxtaposer:
What am I, a non-Catholic, to say to this? Am I damned because I’m not “within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church”? As others have said, “there is no salvation outside the Church.” However, this isn’t quite what came out of Vatican II. What am I to make of this? It’s rather confusing. Especially if I subscribe to the idea of infallibility.
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Vatican Council II address that the separation with “the western churches” (protestants) as result of “mistakes of men from both sides”, and that the next generations cannot be hold responsible for the past mistakes (Decree on Ecumenism). So, good news, you are not damned ! 🙂

The better news is that The Church admitted its mistakes.

Read document
MEMORY AND RECONCILIATION:
THE CHURCH AND THE FAULTS OF THE PAST December 1999

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000307_memory-reconc-itc_en.html

Now The Church is seeking reconciliation with the western churches. Some protestants are very skeptical about it, and some catholics disagrees. But one thing that is undeniable : The Church cannot deny that Justifying Faith is confidence in Divine Mercy (read condemnations by Trent Council about Justification Canon XII). Now the Church is praying hard for " Trusting in Divine Mercy " (A series of prayers taught by Jesus Himself in apparitions to St. Faustina around 1931-1939)

This is only the begining of a new era for The Church.

Some new revelations do bring us to our knees. Let God be the one to save us all.

God bless you.
 
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GrzeszDeL:
Horse feathers. I believe in the Catholic faith which has been handed down to me from of old. I am pretty sure that John Paul II does as well, but if he does not, then it is so much the worse for him. Pope Boniface VII has already infallibly declared that we must be subject to the Pope in order to be saved. John Paul II could not change this fact even if he wanted to (not that I am at all convinced that he does want to). Those who are truly loyal to the bishop of Rome are the ones who agree that there is no salvation outside of communion with the Roman Pontiff.
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**Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

^Shrug^…Thought it was pretty clear :confused:
 
Michael Howard said:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, *try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - *those too may achieve eternal salvation.
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“May achieve eternal salvation.” I would submit that this means that they may enter the Catholic Church, the one ark “outside of which nobody at all is saved” (Lateran IV).
 
It seems to me that even heretics can validly baptise (wasn’t that decided in St.Cyprians day) Since that is true, and one of the requirements for mortal sin (the sin unto death where you lose Gods’ Grace) is a deliberate choice to go against Gods’ Will, then those who do not know that the Church is the true Church, have they committed a mortal sin? If not, then they are still in Gods’ Grace and thus can be saved even though they are separated from the visible Church.
But as previous posters have noted, don’t take my word for, read the documents of Vat II. :yup:
 
GrzeszDeL said:
“May achieve eternal salvation.” I would submit that this means that they may enter the Catholic Church, the one ark “outside of which nobody at all is saved” (Lateran IV).
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Thanks for your reply. St. Paul states in the book of Romas 2:12-16 that there is a judgement that is called the ‘interior judegemnt’. He states in verse 14 that when Gentiles who do not have the law observe the prescriptions of the law they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Essentially what St.Paul is talking about is the fact that when these Gentiles “follow the dictates of conscience” *the law being written on their hearts, *this will serve as their judgement in the final judgement. Essentially, our Church is saying the same thing in the Cathechism,
that there are those who follow God to the best of their knowledge, or attempt to follow the law written on their hearts by God himself, will be judged by those things of interior nature. God is mercy, and He wants folks to be in heaven with Him. Why when scripture states that “God wishes none to perish” would He not give the heathen and the ignorant an opportunity to gain eternal life?
Maybe I’m missing something here and I’d be willing to work it out, but for now I’m not convinced different.
God bless
 
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CANman:
But as previous posters have noted, don’t take my word for, read the documents of Vat II.
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Far be it from me to discourage anyone from reading Vatican II, but while you are at it, if you really want to come to a thorough and well-informed opinion on this matter, you should also read Florence, Trent & Vatican I. Trying to consider Vatican II in isolation from the larger tradition from which it emerged is a recipe for the sort of AmChurch nonsense that prevails so rapantly in so many places today.
 
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GrzeszDeL:
Far be it from me to discourage anyone from reading Vatican II, but while you are at it, if you really want to come to a thorough and well-informed opinion on this matter, you should also read Florence, Trent & Vatican I. Trying to consider Vatican II in isolation from the larger tradition from which it emerged is a recipe for the sort of AmChurch nonsense that prevails so rapantly in so many places today.
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Been there, done that.

Believing God can save someone who through no fault of their own, are not card carrying members of the Catholic Church, is not “nonsense.”
 
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