Say again?

[GEddie]

Otoh, not holding the line while the stakes are still well short of martyrdom may lead to a later situation where that will be required.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Otoh, not holding the line while the stakes are still well short of martyrdom may lead to a later situation where that will be required.

ICXC NIKA

Then we hold the line and make the stand there. At the very least, things will be more certain at that point.

 

[GEddie]

Then we hold the line and make the stand there. At the very least, things will be more certain at that point.

If the line is too hard to hold when the cost is only financial, what makes you think it will be held when the cost is final?

ICXC NIKA

 

[smiddle]

Romans 13:7, we owe everyone our respect, even if we do not agree with their lifestyle. Lawsuits aside, we are all His children, we are not to judge them and treat them unfairly. When it is their time, they will be judged by God. The only thing you can do is pray for them that they will see the true way (Matthew 5:43-48).

 

[mattkubes]

Romans 13:7, we owe everyone our respect, even if we do not agree with their lifestyle. Lawsuits aside, we are all His children, we are not to judge them and treat them unfairly. When it is their time, they will be judged by God. The only thing you can do is pray for them that they will see the true way (Matthew 5:43-48).

That is not what St Paul said. He was reminding us to respect the legitimate authorities over us who ultimately derive their authority from God. We are not bound to respect a public sinner or pay tribute to grave public scandal.

Yes, prayers for our neighbour are always a good idea. It is a divine command that we love our neighbour.

 

[smiddle]

That is not what St Paul said. He was reminding us to respect the legitimate authorities over us who ultimately derive their authority from God. We are not bound to respect a public sinner or pay tribute to grave public scandal.

Yes, prayers for our neighbour are always a good idea. It is a divine command that we love our neighbour.

We are bound to respect the laws of our country. The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees citizens “full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.”

The candlemaker would be refusing to provide them with goods based on a religious belief that the customers did not share with him. This is a violation of the law, which would be a violation of what is clearly stated in Romans 13:1-7.

 

[mattkubes]

We are bound to respect the laws of our country. The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees citizens “full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.”

The candlemaker would be refusing to provide them with goods based on a religious belief that the customers did not share with him. This is a violation of the law, which would be a violation of what is clearly stated in Romans 13:1-7.

We are not bound to submit to unjust laws. To facilitate a grave public sin like this one, one that likely cries out to Heaven for vengeance, is absolutely unjust. In Catholic teaching, it cannot bind us since we must follow the Divine Law first. The State has no authority to say that a grave sin is not a sin.

Godless democracies are hardly bastions of Christian values.

 

[smiddle]

We are not bound to submit to unjust laws. To facilitate a grave public sin like this one, one that likely cries out to Heaven for vengeance, is absolutely unjust. In Catholic teaching, it cannot bind us since we must follow the Divine Law first. The State has no authority to say that a grave sin is not a sin.

Godless democracies are hardly bastions of Christian values.

A law preventing discrimination is unjust? So, are you saying that laws created by the Vatican are unjust? Does the Vatican some how not have Christian values?!

#2358
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm#2358

“They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.”

So, we are not bound to respect a public sinner? Are you overriding the laws of the Vatican? Please, tell me the great authority that was bestowed upon you to be able to break these rules. It must be a great honor to be able to speak to one as powerful as you.

 

[Maryann_C]

Getting back to the OP …

My take was that the candles were for the marriage ceremony. A ceremony which would be an insult to God. …

When you are selling something you know is going to be used for something immoral I believe you participate by consent or even participation.

AMEN that IS the point.

It’s exactly the same in principle to the woman last year who denied a cake to a same sex couple. And she is entirely justified for doing so. It doesn’t matter what you’re selling, you’re obliged by honesty not to sell something when you know it will be used immorally.

again.

Or would you sell forceps to a doctor you knew was performing abortions?

This was my thought or a gun to someone you know was planning a murder which would be against God’s commandments, even if guns are legally used for hunting game.

Romans 13:7, we owe everyone our respect, even if we do not agree with their lifestyle. Lawsuits aside, we are all His children, we are not to judge them and treat them unfairly. When it is their time, they will be judged by God. The only thing you can do is pray for them that they will see the true way (Matthew 5:43-48).

Is this what Jesus modeled when he went on a rampage turning the money peddler’s tables over in the temple? Does one respect a person by condoning their sin by aiding in it?
I often hear of people who fight the good fight against the abortion industry calling on people who fix computers, mow the lawn etc to not do so for an abortion mill because without those services they would be closed down much quicker. It is the same principal as me now boycotting JC Pennys due to their “2 Daddies” add.
The candle maker ran a private business and should be allowed to do business with whomever he chooses or not. There are communities that are set up just for people above a certain age…should they be forced to sell to someone who’s outside of their business model parameters? There are veterinaries that choose not to do large animals - because honestly it is not lucrative- should they be forced to see my horse? My daughter’s friend is going to Wabash an all male College- should they be forced to take a woman just because she wants in?
This candle maker by the very fact that he is Catholic by implication has a business model that is to make custom candles for heterosexual couples only .

 

[mattkubes]

A law preventing discrimination is unjust? So, are you saying that laws created by the Vatican are unjust? Does the Vatican some how not have Christian values?!

#2358
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm#2358

“They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.”

So, we are not bound to respect a public sinner? Are you overriding the laws of the Vatican? Please, tell me the great authority that was bestowed upon you to be able to break these rules. It must be a great honor to be able to speak to one as powerful as you.

I understand that it is easy to resort to sarcasm when faced with an uncomfortable truth, but even in the quotation you provided, it says we are to avoid unjust discrimination. In other words, there are times when discrimination may be just. No one has the right to offend God, and we are not required to aid them in their sinful venture. Refusing to facilitate the abomination that is a same-sex “marriage” is not a form of unjust discrimination.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

You can bet that if I were asked to play music for a “wedding” of a couple of sodomites, I’d refuse. I’d be well within my rights to do so, regardless of immoral laws passed by this godless country. In fact, unless what product or services you are selling are a basic necessity, nobody can say that you HAVE to do something. If I want to refuse sodomites my services, I can. If I want to refuse services to an ordinary couple who want a legitimate wedding, I can. In the latter case, it’d likely be silly to do so, but I still COULD do it, and it wouldn’t be immoral, nor would I be infringing upon any others’ rights by my refusal.

 

[smiddle]

Getting back to the OP …
AMEN that IS the point.

again.

This was my thought or a gun to someone you know was planning a murder which would be against God’s commandments, even if guns are legally used for hunting game.

Is this what Jesus modeled when he went on a rampage turning the money peddler’s tables over in the temple? Does one respect a person by condoning their sin by aiding in it?
I often hear of people who fight the good fight against the abortion industry calling on people who fix computers, mow the lawn etc to not do so for an abortion mill because without those services they would be closed down much quicker. It is the same principal as me now boycotting JC Pennys due to their “2 Daddies” add.
The candle maker ran a private business and should be allowed to do business with whomever he chooses or not. There are communities that are set up just for people above a certain age…should they be forced to sell to someone who’s outside of their business model parameters? There are veterinaries that choose not to do large animals - because honestly it is not lucrative- should they be forced to see my horse? My daughter’s friend is going to Wabash an all male College- should they be forced to take a woman just because she wants in?
This candle maker by the very fact that he is Catholic by implication has a business model that is to make custom candles for heterosexual couples only .

I believe that Ellen puts it best. huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/08/ellen-degeneres-one-million-moms-jc-penney_n_1262623.html Do you really think that your boycott of JC Penney is going to hurt them?

The examples you listed are not ones of discrimination. They are not excluding others because of personal/religious belief. You cannot discriminate against a horse. Get a grip. 50+ communities do not have to sell a house to someone under 50 years old, because it is a law that these types of retirement communities are allowed, and there is no reason for someone under the allowed age to want to live there. The reason that Christian/Catholic hospitals are allowed to refuse certain services to people is because they are recognized as a religious institution. They are protected under the law. The candle shop is not a religious institution; therefore he must follow the law like everyone else.

How would the homosexual couple know that the candle maker was Catholic? We are not under the reign of Hitler; Catholics do not walk around with a crucifix stitched onto their shirts.

Matthew 7:1-2. We are not the judges, God is. We have no right to judge anyone else for their acts or their sins, and it is not our place to discriminate against them for their sin. They are people. We are people. We are God’s people. We do not answer to each other, we answer to God. He knows the true intentions of our hearts and he knows whether our actions are right or wrong.

Also, before you pose a response to me, please utilize the spell check feature that is ever so kindly given to you. Your grammar is terrible, but am I right to judge you and to think less of you because of it? No, because it is not my job to judge, as I’ve stated numerous times before.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Also, before you pose a response to me, please utilize the spell check feature that is ever so kindly given to you. Your grammar is terrible, but am I right to judge you and to think less of you because of it? No, because it is not my job to judge, as I’ve stated numerous times before.

I hate to say it, but you may want to review your own post before attempting to correct another person’s grammar.

We are not under the reign of Hitler

We’re getting there. Patience!

 

[smiddle]

You can bet that if I were asked to play music for a “wedding” of a couple of sodomites, I’d refuse. I’d be well within my rights to do so, regardless of immoral laws passed by this godless country. In fact, unless what product or services you are selling are a basic necessity, nobody can say that you HAVE to do something. If I want to refuse sodomites my services, I can. If I want to refuse services to an ordinary couple who want a legitimate wedding, I can. In the latter case, it’d likely be silly to do so, but I still COULD do it, and it wouldn’t be immoral, nor would I be infringing upon any others’ rights by my refusal.

Godless country? Our nation was founded under Christian values. The Declaration of Independence references to the Creator, and we are “One nation under God.” More than half of the founding fathers were Christian. That makes no sense whatsoever.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Religions_of_the_US.PNG

That is an insane amount of Christianity and pretty much the whole South is in the Bible Belt.

 

[mattkubes]

The candle shop is not a religious institution, therefore he must follow the law like everyone else.

You are turning your country’s laws into an idol. We must only obey laws that do not require us to violate Divine Law - our first and most important responsibility is to God.

We cannot be compelled by any legal authority to be party to the celebration of a homosexual “marriage.” This is a just form of discrimination. Just like we’d tell the blind man that he cannot be an airline pilot, we tell the two people who cannot marry that they cannot marry No amount of legal posturing can change that fact.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Godless country? Our nation was founded under Christian values. The Declaration of Independence references to the Creator, and we are “One nation under God.” More than half of the founding fathers were Christian. That makes no sense whatsoever.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Religions_of_the_US.PNG

That is an insane amount of Christianity and pretty much the whole South is in the Bible Belt.

Whether or not it was or wasn’t doesn’t matter too much now. Take a look around and see what the country is like today. It’s godless. Would there be 4,000 deaths a day from abortion if it weren’t godless? Would there even be debate about sodomite “marriages”? The list goes on.

 

[smiddle]

I hate to say it, but you may want to review your own post before attempting to correct another person’s grammar.

Please, tell me the errors that I made. There are a few places in which semicolons would have been better, that is it. Maryann C made several spelling and sentence structure errors, foolish ones at that.

 

[smiddle]

Whether or not it was or wasn’t doesn’t matter too much now. Take a look around and see what the country is like today. It’s godless. Would there be 4,000 deaths a day from abortion if it weren’t godless? Would there even be debate about sodomite “marriages”? The list goes on.

4,000 abortions a day? Where are you getting this number from? The CDC would have to disagree with you. cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/index.htm#Abortion

 

[Maryann_C]

I believe that Ellen puts it best. huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/08/ellen-degeneres-one-million-moms-jc-penney_n_1262623.html Do you really think that your boycott of JC Penney is going to hurt them?

The examples you listed are not ones of discrimination. They are not excluding others because of personal/religious belief. You cannot discriminate against a horse. Get a grip. 50+ communities do not have to sell a house to someone under 50 years old, because it is a law that these types of retirement communities are allowed, and there is no reason for someone under the allowed age to want to live there. The reason that Christian/Catholic hospitals are allowed to refuse certain services to people is because they are recognized as a religious institution. They are protected under the law. The candle shop is not a religious institution; therefore he must follow the law like everyone else.

How would the homosexual couple know that the candle maker was Catholic? We are not under the reign of Hitler; Catholics do not walk around with a crucifix stitched onto their shirts.

Matthew 7:1-2. We are not the judges, God is. We have no right to judge anyone else for their acts or their sins, and it is not our place to discriminate against them for their sin. They are people. We are people. We are God’s people. We do not answer to each other, we answer to God. He knows the true intentions of our hearts and he knows whether our actions are right or wrong.

Also, before you pose a response to me, please utilize the spell check feature that is ever so kindly given to you. Your grammar is terrible, but am I right to judge you and to think less of you because of it? No, because it is not my job to judge, as I’ve stated numerous times before.

My Dear Smidy …You are …well I was going to judge you. I am English/ German and you are …American perhaps ? who knows because you don’t say, but an Englishman would say to an American “please use spell check and your grammar is terrible” For your information I do use the American spell check as given on my American computer and you are right it is “horrible” but what on earth does that have to do with the topic???.

 

[mattkubes]

4,000 abortions a day? Where are you getting this number from? The CDC would have to disagree with you. cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/index.htm#Abortion

This was hardly the main thrust of his post.