Say no to torture, USCCB committee chair urges [CC]

[Tomdstone]

The entire argument is whether or not torture is intrinsically evil. It is not.

Torture is intrinsically evil. End of story…

Well, which is it according to the Roman Catholic teaching?

 

[SWolf]

So the infallible catechism of the Catholic church is wrong?

The Catechism is not infallible.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-catechism-of-the-catholic-church.cfm

s the doctrinal authority of the Catechism equal to that of the dogmatic definitions of a pope or ecumenical council?
By its very nature, a catechism presents the fundamental truths of the faith which have already been communicated and defined. Because the Catechism presents Catholic doctrine in a complete yet summary way, it naturally contains the infallible doctrinal definitions of the popes and ecumenical councils in the history of the Church.** It also presents teaching which has not been communicated and defined in these most solemn forms.** This does not mean that such teaching can be disregarded or ignored. Quite to the contrary, the Catechism presents Catholic doctrine as an organic whole and as it is related to Christ who is the center. A major catechism, such as the Catechism of the Catholic Church, presents a compendium of Church teachings and has the advantage of demonstrating the harmony that exists among those teachings.

 

[Darryl1958]

So the infallible catechism of the Catholic church is wrong?

I don’t think it is infallible, actually.
Infallible is a word that is used by Catholics, way, way, way too much.

The catechism is good for reading and discussion and guidance, but it is updated, as it should be, for the age that it finds itself in. It is not timeless.

And, by the way, there is nowhere that I said it was wrong. It is fine as far as it goes, but I think that amputating limbs as a form of punishment for theft is wrong, don’t you?

The catechism doesn’t go that far, at least not in the passage that was quoted to me. It only says that amputating the limbs of innocent people is wrong.

Dern tootin’ that is wrong. But that does mean that I am boiling under the collar over amputations of the limbs of thieves any less.
As far as I am concerned, that is torture of a much more severe degree than anything that America has ever subjected Islamist terrorist to, even terrorists who have the potential to dispense of much greater evil than the theft of an apple for the market.

 

[jtauke]

You make yourself irrelevant.
You are rabidly against something that you refuse to even define.

It is pointless carrying a conversation with the peanut gallery, who exist to harangue and throw their peanuts, without adding anything of any real substance to carry the discussion further.

We’ll agree to disagree. It’s clear you won’t renege on your support of state sanctioned torture.

 

[Tomdstone]

The Catechism is not infallible.

From another thread:

The CCC is pretty infallible, a statement of the universal Magisterium…

Why do Roman Catholics claim the CCC is infallible?

 

[Darryl1958]

We’ll agree to disagree. It’s clear you won’t renege on your support of state sanctioned torture.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

If I actually thought you had even bothered to read anything I said, the only conclusion that could be drawn is that you are lying and slandering me.

 

[jtauke]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

If I actually thought you had even bothered to read anything I said, the only conclusion that could be drawn is that you are lying and slandering me.

Whatever you say

 

[josh987654321]

Recalling the teaching of St. John Paul II on torture, the chairman of the US bishops’ Committee on International Justice and Peace expressed concern about recent political …

More…

“We still hear some advocate for waterboarding and ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ (a euphemism for torture) as a way of extracting information,” Bishop Oscar Cantú wrote on a blog associated with the bishops’ conference.

“In the current environment of fear, we do well to remember Catholic teaching,” he added. “It tells us that torture is always wrong.”

Amen. Torture is always wrong and evil.

I have read some other posts, and in regards to the ‘wiggle room’ when it comes to the definition of ‘torture’ I think we can all agree that blindfolding or imprisonment etc are not torture, and certainly not what one thinks of when they are told they will be tortured, if I said I am going to torture X prisoner (or you), what do you think I am going to do? … waterboarding certainly comes to my mind as well as other things too horrific to even speak of, so in the true sense of the word ‘torture’ it is always wrong, evil and nothing can justify it.

Blindfolding and imprisonment etc are all done for practical purposes and not with the intention of inflicting as much pain as one can on someone in order to extract information from them.

In WWII the Allies behind enemy lines in Nazi Germany had cyanide pills in their mouths, so that if they were captured they could kill themselves in order to spare being ‘tortured’. It was also declared a war crime under the Geneva Convention and rightly so.

I am very glad the US Bishops issued this.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Tomdstone]

In WWII the Allies behind enemy lines in Nazi Germany had cyanide pills in their mouths, so that if they were captured they could kill themselves in order to spare being ‘tortured’. It was also declared a war crime under the Geneva Convention and rightly so.

There are commentators who claim that the German prisoners who confessed during the Nuremberg trials had been tortured and that their confessions were obtained under duress.

 

[josh987654321]

There are commentators who claim that the German prisoners who confessed during the Nuremberg trials had been tortured and that their confessions were obtained under duress.

Did they? and what are some of the things they did? If it involved waterboarding and other worse practices, than I think they were very wrong in doing so if they did.

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[pnewton]

From another thread:

Why do Roman Catholics claim the CCC is infallible?

Some people are not precise in their language. The Catechism is considered a sure norm of Catholic teaching. It is our doctrine, some of which has been declared infallible, which is a different level, dogma, of things which must be accepted with faith. For all practical purposes though, here, and among the Catholic community, the Catechism is our norm and should be the trump to all discussion.

Catholics may believe that torture is acceptable, but accepting torture is not Catholic.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Some people are not precise in their language. The Catechism is considered a sure norm of Catholic teaching. It is our doctrine, some of which has been declared infallible, which is a different level, dogma, of things which must be accepted with faith. For all practical purposes though, here, and among the Catholic community, the Catechism is our norm and should be the trump to all discussion.

Catholics may believe that torture is acceptable, but accepting torture is not Catholic.

I agree. I read Mark Shea often. He states, paraphrasing, as Catholics we shouldn’t see how far we can go before something is a sin. Water boarding isn’t a humane treatment. If I did that to my son, or my husband, or a neighbor, I would be charged with assault. In the US when a suspect is arrested the officers need to follow Miranda procedures.

The bishop referenced in the OP referenced Abu Ghraib as being torture. I remember thinking, “We are the US. We aren’t supposed to be like that.” My father is from a small town in Sicily. The old man next door had been a prisoner of war in the US during WWII. He told us how well he was treated, and how much he had to eat. My mother’s uncle was a POW of the Nazi’s. On good days he had potato skins to eat.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think we can all agree that blindfolding or imprisonment etc are not torture, and certainly not what one thinks of when they are told they will be tortured, if I said I am going to torture X prisoner (or you), what do you think I am going to do?

If you say “torture”, most people would think of things like bamboo under the fingernails, electric shock, having one’s joints pulled apart, whipping. Beyond that, peoples’ notions vary.

People sometimes commit suicide because they are imprisoned. So, if people kill themselves to avoid it, there would certainly be some who would call it “torture”. I have seen, on this very site, people who call for abolition of solitary confinement because it’s “torture”. Drives people mad, and so forth.

The exact problem when people announce that this is torture or that isn’t torture, is that nobody seems willing to proffer an even remotely clear definition of what it is.

 

[Ridgerunner]

If I did that to my son, or my husband, or a neighbor, I would be charged with assault. In the US when a suspect is arrested the officers need to follow Miranda procedures.

Of course you would be charged. However, the various special forces of the U.S. do it all the time and nobody arrests them. Some have undergone it just to see what it’s like. Terrorist organizations put their recruits through it.

Arrest of a citizen for an ordinary crime is different from war. Officers can’t gun down a perpetrator just because he’s a perpetrator, but that happens all the time in war.

 

[josh987654321]

If you say “torture”, most people would think of things like bamboo under the fingernails, electric shock, having one’s joints pulled apart, whipping.

I agree.

Beyond that, peoples’ notions vary.

Most of the time, I hear it’s ‘waterboarding’ people are referring to, which is wrong and unjustified.

People sometimes commit suicide because they are imprisoned. So, if people kill themselves to avoid it, there would certainly be some who would call it “torture”. I have seen, on this very site, people who call for abolition of solitary confinement because it’s “torture”. Drives people mad, and so forth.

True, but that’s why I used the example of ‘What would come to your mind if someone said they were going to torture you?’ (What if they wanted you to renounce Christ?) it’s certainly not imprisonment or solitary confinement (That method would take way too long anyway, proving to be totally ineffective and if that was their idea of ‘torture’ id count it a blessing).

The exact problem when people announce that this is torture or that isn’t torture, is that nobody seems willing to offer an even remotely clear definition of what it is.

I know, it’s when one has the intention of inflicting as much pain and suffering on someone as they can in efforts to extract information from them, therefore it’s always wrong and evil.

There is also something about restraining a man and inflicting as much cruelty and malice onto them as possible (whether it be the law that restrains them or the fact that their subject could die) that I find deeply abhorrent and certainly not Christian, we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block for the Jews and folly to the Gentiles.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Darryl1958]

I think that solitary confinement is a form of torture. It is also the best option to protect certain prisoners who otherwise would be killed in the general population of the prison.

Gross negligence that would lead to a person;s death is against Catholic teaching, and so is torture. Either way, a Catholic prison warden who takes his faith seriously has a choice to make, and neither option is going to be a good one.

 

[josh987654321]

I think that solitary confinement is a form of torture. It is also the best option to protect certain prisoners who otherwise would be killed in the general population of the prison.

Gross negligence that would lead to a person;s death is against Catholic teaching, and so is torture. Either way, a Catholic prison warden who takes his faith seriously has a choice to make, and neither option is going to be a good one.

I disagree, such solitary confinement, prison, blindfolding etc can be for good reasons, and it certainly wasn’t with the intention of inflicting as much suffering on someone as one can in order to ‘extract’ something from them against his/her will.

So I do not think it is right to refer to solitary confinement, prison or blindfolding etc, as torture, unless they are done with the ‘intention’ to torture someone, than I think it would be just to call them torture and therefore wrong and evil.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Ridgerunner]

I know, it’s when one has the intention of inflicting as much pain and suffering on someone as they can in efforts to extract information from them, therefore it’s always wrong and evil.

Undoubtedly there have been occasions when the imposer “…has the intention of inflicting as much pain …as they can…” One can think of Saddam Hussein’s acid baths, for example, or hanging a person with his arms backward so his shoulders elbows and wrists become disjointed. But much of what people call “torture” is a long way from inflicting “…as much pain and suffering…as they can…”

 

[Darryl1958]

I disagree, such solitary confinement, prison, blindfolding etc can be for good reasons, and it certainly wasn’t with the intention of inflicting as much suffering on someone as one can in order to ‘extract’ something from them against his/her will.

So I do not think it is right to refer to solitary confinement, prison or blindfolding etc, as torture, unless they are done with the ‘intention’ to torture someone, than I think it would be just to call them torture and therefore wrong and evil.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

I am against inflicting as much pain as one can in order to extract information too.
But I am also for finding ways to gain timely information in order to prevent, say, an elementary school full of children being incinerated.
Do we both agree that this would be good information to be able to obtain?

 

[jtauke]

I am against inflicting as much pain as one can in order to extract information too.
But I am also for finding ways to gain timely information in order to prevent, say, an elementary school full of children being incinerated.
Do we both agree that this would be good information to be able to obtain?

So we can sin, so long as in the end we do good? Not sure it’s supposed to work like that.