Scandals … contraception, homosexuality, etc

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Peter_J

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The Scriptural background to this thread is that the Lord tells us, not only that we shouldn’t judge (Judge not lest you be judged.” Matthew 7:1) but also that we should not cause scandal (“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” Matthew 18:6. A footnote explains that the verb translated “causes…to sin” or “causes to stumble” is the Greek verb skandalizein, hence our word scandal/scandalize. See usccb.org/bible/mt/18:6 )

Now here’s the thing: the modern world is a lot worse in some regards then past ages. For example, most married couples contracept, and even those who do not will likely be assumed to contracept by their neighbors. Likewise, most gay (homosexual) people engage in homosexual sex, and even those who do not will likely be assumed to do so by their neighbors. And, for that matter, most engaged couples have sex, and even those who do not will likely be assumed to do so by their neighbors. And any other examples that I’ve missed.

So I think the question is, what’s to be done?

I don’t want to suggest the obvious solution – namely that, when asked questions like “Are you married?” that people respond with something like:
  • “Yes, that’s my wife over there talking to the pastor. And we don’t contracept because it’s a sin.”
  • “No, because I’m gay. And I don’t engage in homosexual sex because that’s a sin.”
  • “No, but I’m engaged. And we don’t engage in sexual intercourse because that’s a sin outside of marriage.”
but I’m open to hearing what other solutions there might be.

(Catholics and Non-Catholics are both welcome to answer, but I’m mainly interested in Christian viewpoints.)
 
well…what did Jesus himself say regarding these matters?
 
I think this goes back to what the Pope meant when he said we “shouldnt judge.” Just by looking at an engaged couple its impossible to come to the conclusion that they are having sex before marriage (unless you have a supernatural ability like some of the saints did, but that is very rare.) You would have to talk to the couple to know more about their current situation. The same goes for contraception or same sex attraction. St.Bonaventure in his writing on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit says that it goes against the Gift of Wisdom to judge someone without knowing all the information.

With that said, if engaged couples or people with same sex attraction are walking in the same house together by themselves and/or spending the night, this can show scandal. The same would be if two people with same sex attraction were holding hands. The same would be if we see a married couple talk about how contraception is not a sin. We don’t know for sure if they are commiting the horror of sexual sin but they are giving the impression that they are which is scandalous.
 
Also, As far as those comments you posted as a solution it seems like in general just saying those comments may seem like you are boasting…??? There may be an appropriate time to say those comments but walking around to everyone and saying them may not be prudent.

The solution…???
Live Holy lives, love one another, and act prudent. At times when God gives you the grace speak up and give witness to your life,catechise, or preach against the evil of these things, do it. People will see by your holiness that you don’t fool or atleast have a resolution not to fool with sexual sin.
 
So, if we aren’t to judge, then why even pose responses to being judged? 😉

And I’m not so sure that our modern age has the corner of the market on sin. Humankind has been living in sin since Adam and Eve ate the apple (or whatever kind of fruit it was).

What we do have is a PC society in which anything goes except what is considered not okay by the PC police–in other words Facebook, Twitter, etc.

I know of no one who would ask any couple if they are using contraception, or engaging in premarital or homosexual sex. I sure wouldn’t. I don’t assume anything about anyone so that I don’t fall into the sin of detraction against others. Anyone who does have the gall to ask about such things ought to be told to mind their own business.
 
Peter_J said:
So I think the question is, what’s to be done?

I don’t want to suggest the obvious solution – namely that, when asked questions like “Are you married?” that people respond with something like:
  • “Yes, that’s my wife over there talking to the pastor. And we don’t contracept because it’s a sin.”
  • “No, because I’m gay. And I don’t engage in homosexual sex because that’s a sin.”
  • “No, but I’m engaged. And we don’t engage in sexual intercourse because that’s a sin outside of marriage.”
but I’m open to hearing what other solutions there might be.
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LittleFlower378 said:
Also, As far as those comments you posted as a solution it seems like in general just saying those comments may seem like you are boasting…??? There may be an appropriate time to say those comments but walking around to everyone and saying them may not be prudent.
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Don’t get me wrong; when I say “I don’t want to suggest the obvious solution – namely that” etc., I’m trying to illustrate that there may not *be *an easy solution.
 
LittleFlower378 said:
I think this goes back to what the Pope meant when he said we “shouldnt judge.” Just by looking at an engaged couple its impossible to come to the conclusion that they are having sex before marriage (unless you have a supernatural ability like some of the saints did, but that is very rare.) You would have to talk to the couple to know more about their current situation. The same goes for contraception or same sex attraction. St.Bonaventure in his writing on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit says that it goes against the Gift of Wisdom to judge someone without knowing all the information.
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Good elaborations on not-judging. 🙂 (Part of the reason I provided bible verses about both judging and scandal is to avoid putting anyone on defense. I.e. I didn’t want to put anyone in a position like “Well, you’re right that Christ said not to judge, but he also said not to scandalize”, or conversely “Well, you’re right that Christ said not to scandalize, but he also said not to judge.”
LittleFlower378 said:
With that said, if engaged couples or people with same sex attraction are walking in the same house together by themselves and/or spending the night, this can show scandal. The same would be if two people with same sex attraction were holding hands. The same would be if we see a married couple talk about how contraception is not a sin. We don’t know for sure if they are commiting the horror of sexual sin but they are giving the impression that they are which is scandalous.
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Speaking of not judging, I hope this won’t come across as judgmental of those people (or as nitpicking your post for that matter), but I would point out that the highlighted example is very different from the other ones: people walking in the same house together or holding hands can appear to be going against Catholic teaching (whether they actually are or not); but a someone saying that contraception, premarital sex, or homosexual sex is not sinful definitely is going against Catholic teaching.
 
If people assume things because ‘everyone else does it’, that is their problem. In fact you are the one judging people by assuming that they are making assumptions about you.

However, what you can do is let them know when conversation naturally steers that way. For example, when I would discuss my and my boyfriend’s holiday plans with friends, I’d mention in passing that we were staying in hostel dorms because that was an obvious assumption that people might make. But I wouldnt say ‘becuase sex before marriage is a mortal sin’. Frankly, any friends that I was relatively close to would have known I didn’t love with my bf until after marriage and would have at least suspected if not outright known that we didn’t sleep together. People who I don’t know well enough to know that about me, I don’t know well enough to make random statements about my sex life based on assuming their opinions of me.

Tl;Dr, don’t deliberately mislead people or actually commit the sin and peoples’ assumptions are their own problem.
 
Peter_J said:
Speaking of not judging, I hope this won’t come across as judgmental of those people (or as nitpicking your post for that matter), but I would point out that the highlighted example is very different from the other ones: people walking in the same house together or holding hands can appear to be going against Catholic teaching (whether they actually are or not); but a someone saying that contraception, premarital sex, or homosexual sex is not sinful definitely is going against Catholic teaching.
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+1 agreed
 
Honestly… one of the things I think would help is if we cut down on gossip in our own lives (if it is there ;)).

Apart from abstaining from things that we know to be sinful, we also have to pay attention to the Golden rule; if we are busy doing positive, perhaps the rest would take care of itself, at least amongst Christians. We aren’t responsible for the thoughts of someone else, but we are to live cleanly and mind our witness.
 
Peter_J said:
Good elaborations on not-judging. 🙂 (Part of the reason I provided bible verses about both judging and scandal is to avoid putting anyone on defense. I.e. I didn’t want to put anyone in a position like “Well, you’re right that Christ said not to judge, but he also said not to scandalize”, or conversely “Well, you’re right that Christ said not to scandalize, but he also said not to judge.”

Speaking of not judging, I hope this won’t come across as judgmental of those people (or as nitpicking your post for that matter), but I would point out that the highlighted example is very different from the other ones: people walking in the same house together or holding hands can appear to be going against Catholic teaching (whether they actually are or not); but a someone saying that contraception, premarital sex, or homosexual sex is not sinful definitely is going against Catholic teaching.
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Right it is for sure going against Catholic teaching AND if said in public may scandalize others.
 
Assumptions are influenced by popular culture, the attitudes of peers, and statistics, which have to change in concert to yield widespread change.

For example, many Christians pledge to wait until marriage but they fail, more so if they’re in their mid- to late-20 or older. By Christian, I mean those who you’d classify as devout or good Christians i.e. participate worship weekly, lead worship, leading Bible studies, etc. The majority fail to wait. This is why even Christians have these assumptions.

Sociologists and psychologists have pointed out that the culture in the West right now is toxic. Popular culture over the decades has normalized non-marital sex, ‘experimentation’, and seeking ‘sexual compatibility’. The arguments that popular culture is reflecting a shift in society is a lie, they promoted what was not common. It’s now expected. Many single Christians believe in these lies subconsciously if not consciously, which not only changes assumptions but also increases the chances of non-marital sexual activity with another person, which then affects statistics. Statistics and the effects of popular culture create assumptions amongst peers. This is why you hear stories about Christian peers being surprised and joke about it when they find out an unmarried mid- to late-20 yr old single is a virgin even more so if that single is a man.

Being realistic no one is going to say ‘I’m a virgin’ unannounced like Tim Tebow, it’s uninvited and too personal. Even if it’s the opposite, if a man did it, there’s also shame attached, just look at what Tim Tebow got in response. It’s rude to ask and it’s uninvited and too personal but a shift in assumptions would occur if more Christians especially men in the public eye were willing to do what Tim Tebow did if they really lived it out to counter the narratives that it will end in failure, those waiting are all on their own, they’re ‘losers’, etc. and if they’re men, the narrative they can’t be virgins. Right now, most promote the very opposite, even brag and celebrate it. Celebrities do matter, they are role models for young people, and they do have an impact on society. And it’s also out of our control.

This also applies to the other issues. I’m not Catholic so contraception is not an issue for me but can you name a Catholic celebrity who doesn’t use contraception? A gay or lesbian celebrity who will live by orthodox Christian standards?
 
It is better not to ask. Like it is none of our business?

We can try to show them of course like it is wrong to use ABC, sex outside marriage or homosexual sex, if they are close enough to us by our lives, deed, and word. 😉
 
Reuben_J said:
It is better not to ask. Like it is none of our business?

We can try to show them of course like it is wrong to use ABC, sex outside marriage or homosexual sex, if they are close enough to us by our lives, deed, and word. 😉
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Sometimes I think this is a realm that falls more naturally on women, regarding the whole contraception thing. I’ve had several opportunities within the past year to make subtle comments about it. We’re the ones who make the OB visits, who get asked if our latest pregnancy was planned, how many children we want, etc. “We try to be open to God’s plan for our family,” and “We don’t have an upper limit on children,” or “However many God blesses us with,” etc. I think that usually gets the point across. My experience so far has been that people assume contraception, and comment accordingly.
 
ShrodingersCat said:
If people assume things because ‘everyone else does it’, that is their problem. In fact you are the one judging people by assuming that they are making assumptions about you.

However, what you can do is let them know when conversation naturally steers that way. For example, when I would discuss my and my boyfriend’s holiday plans with friends, I’d mention in passing that we were staying in hostel dorms because that was an obvious assumption that people might make. But I wouldnt say ‘becuase sex before marriage is a mortal sin’. Frankly, any friends that I was relatively close to would have known I didn’t love with my bf until after marriage and would have at least suspected if not outright known that we didn’t sleep together. People who I don’t know well enough to know that about me, I don’t know well enough to make random statements about my sex life based on assuming their opinions of me.
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Well one facet of this discussion (and I guess part of the reason I started this thread) is that I don’t get some of the inferences that people draw. If for example, “engaged couples or people with same sex attraction are walking in the same house together by themselves”, I’m positive that I would not conclude that they were sexually active based on that. It isn’t that I’m trying hard to be charitable to the people in question; it’s more like my brain just isn’t wired to react in that way to that information.
 
Peter_J said:
:). Well, I figured I should put in some kind of clarification of intent, since I put the thread in the Non-Catholic Religions forum. :cool:
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I just couldn’t help but read that you really desired a Christian response but C’s and P’s could also respond if they desired! 😃
 
Peter_J said:
Well one facet of this discussion (and I guess part of the reason I started this thread) is that I don’t get some of the inferences that people draw. If for example, “engaged couples or people with same sex attraction are walking in the same house together by themselves”, I’m positive that I would not conclude that they were sexually active based on that. It isn’t that I’m trying hard to be charitable to the people in question; it’s more like my brain just isn’t wired to react in that way to that information.
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Hi Peter J

I think you are one of those fortunate “nice” people out there.

This made me think. Two persons of the opposite sex can not go on holiday or be together alone and that normally cause scandal, but when two same sex persons do the same, nobody cares (And the case I am thinking of, it was a lot more obvious something was going on there). Human minds are strange, and we don’t always ask for our thinking.
 
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