Scandals causing more Germans to leave Catholic Church, cardinal says

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I think the public is measuring with two different measures here.

If you think the president is incompetent or evil, you seek change and support a better candidate. You don’t say, because the president is a bad-un, the entire democratic concept is rotten and I’m turning my back on it. If you get bad advice from an incompetent doctor in a hospital, you complain about that individual but don’t say all of medical science is looney. But if you hear about a priest who does something, even if it’s not a priest you know personally and you didn’t suffer any harm prsonally, you see that as a reason to turn your back on the Church. This seems deeply illogical to me.
Yes but if its just one rotten doctor, they are quickly repremanded. If its just one bad president, the party wont cover for him. If its just “one” bad priest (more like 2% of priests being pedophiles, according to Pope Francis - which is thousands and thousands of priests worldwide) the Church protects them, covers up, makes excuses, lies, and tries to shift the blame.

The Church’s dirt doesnt just stop at the rape of minors. Its also involved in money laundering, dealing with mafia, living lavish, among other things I am sure (sadly, nothing shocks me anymore and as bad as the claim can be, it wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibility).

Then turns around and talks about morality. They dont make it very easy to follow and be apart of, that is for sure. They leave us nothing to work with. How can these leaders who lack such common sense be trusted to lead us in EVERY aspect of our everyday lives?

I dont advocate leaving the Church, but they dont make it easy. I can fully understand why people leave and it has nothing to do with looking for excuses, they dont need any.
 
Then turns around and talks about morality. They dont make it very easy to follow and be apart of, that is for sure. They leave us nothing to work with. How can these leaders who lack such common sense be trusted to lead us in EVERY aspect of our everyday lives?
Yes, good point. It is especially sad when a person leaves the Church, knowing it is unique in forgiving sins through the sacrament of Penance.
 
I think that in modern Europe the religion is Science. I may sound crazy but I’m serious. Scientists are almost revered as wise men of great knowledge and if something is branded as “Science” people think it must be true. Even if a scientific theory has no proof and requires tons of faith, people are still more likely to believe in it than religion because it’s “Science”. Secularism isn’t about freedom of religion, it’s about freedom from, and destruction of, religion. Secularism isn’t about keeping religion out of state and letting people choose their own religion, its about making people not believe in a religion. Secular education and culture is designed to encourage people to embrace pseudoscience and abandon all forms of faith and morals.
These are all interesting points worth serious consideration.

:yup:
 
Are these Germans walking away from Christianity all together or just the catholic church? It is happening all around the world, but Germany is really experiencing a tough time.
 
This may be one reason why Germans are leaving the Church, but I doubt having heterodox bishops who are trying to change teachings of the Church is helping their cause.
 
Are these Germans walking away from Christianity all together or just the catholic church? It is happening all around the world, but Germany is really experiencing a tough time.
Actually I think this is about people who have lapsed years ago, and don’t spend much time thinking about religion either way. A lot of people like to marry in church and get their children baptized in church because its a nice ceremony and society expects it. Quite a lot of people are thus members of the church on paper but it has no effect on their everyday lives.

In Germany it is important to register as Catholic as the tax office automatically transfers part of your money to the church. For a lot of people who don’t otherwise bother with the church, that’s fine, as they perceive the church as doing good works in charity etc.

I believe that the recent wave of people leaving is not affecting active congragations but more these long lapsed members. Seeing they don’t attaned Mass, their image of the Church is based wholly on media reporting. Besides the paedophila scandal etc, Germany was recently rocked by the bishop who spent millions building a luxury mansion. Thus people who don’t otherwise know much about the church are seeing that as a reason to say “not with my tax money”. Their departure is the logical conclusion of decisons taken maybe decades ago, maybe even before they were born, when their parents stopped attending.

So is it starving the Church of active members? No. is it bad for the Church’s charitative works? Yes, because the church is losing out on its share of taxes.
 
I think a lot of these scandals give people the excuse they need to leave.

If their Faith and understanding of history were more solid and grounded in reality, this would not be happening.
Quite the contrary: the more understanding of the Catholic doctrine you have, the more horrifying the molestation scandal is. Key concept: in persona Christi.
 
And they think that the Church was horrible during the Dark Ages and kept people from knowledge even though it was the Church that preserved knowledge from the antiquity and the Church was a great patron of the arts in the Renaissance. The Church also invented the scientific method.
But all that happened before the counter-reformation started around ca. 1550 (Council of Trent). By 1600, the Church was already prosecuting and executing scientists for heresy (cf. Giordano Bruno). Then you have the whole geocentrism fiasco – and the decrees against heliocentrism have never been revoked, so, legally speaking, belief in heliocentrism still carries a penalty of excommunication in 2014.

Science and the Church have parted their ways in Trent.
 
Quite the contrary: the more understanding of the Catholic doctrine you have, the more horrifying the molestation scandal is. Key concept: in persona Christi.
in persona Christi is a concept of sacramental theology that applies to administration of the sacraments and not to rogue priests committing crimes. Sorry but your argument is invalid on the face of it.
 
in persona Christi is a concept of sacramental theology that applies to administration of the sacraments and not to rogue priests committing crimes.
No amount of theological obfuscation can obscure the fact that the same person is involved n both acts… that causes some strong cognitive dissonance, doesn’t it?
 
No amount of theological obfuscation can obscure the fact that the same person is involved n both acts… that causes some strong cognitive dissonance, doesn’t it?
gasp priests are… sinful humans? REALLY?!
 
Well, this shouldn’t surprise us. … I mean, in the bigger picture, Europe hasn’t really been Christian for centuries. Science started to take the upper hand in the Renaissance. Nietzsche’s God is dead was from 1882, referencing the decline of Christianity as a spiritual and intellectual force in Europe. He thought it was basically done, to be replaced by socialism, etc.

Scandals do hurt the Church a lot though; it seems to take about 15 years or so after an outbreak for a recovery to set in (assuming the issues are addressed and fixed to enable a recovery). Also, wayward, secular-leaning bishops and clergy do an incredible amount of damage as well.

I can’t really see how Europe can return to Christianity. It just seems so spiritually dead. You ever watch the photo snapping tourists go through the churches. Amazing. The thought of sitting down and praying is so far from almost all of them. They look bored.

But we are probably overplaying this. You can argue that the Old and New Testaments are all about nonbelievers everywhere…maybe this is just “the world” after all…nothing particularly new. Has there ever been a time when the world anywhere was chock full of genuine true Christians??
 
I totally agree with Super Luigi that the Church should do something to make the laity’s faith very solid, so come what may the people will be rooted in Christ’s church. To add to that, any clergy caught in any act that really wounds the Church should be excommunicated or be punished accordingly.
 
gasp priests are… sinful humans? REALLY?!
And this is precisely this attitude which is the problem.

The first problem is referring to pedophilia as “sinful”. While this label is technically true, there is a lot of other things which are also “sinful” – e.g. masturbation. Now, this is a part of larger problem with Catholic view of sex which is this: there is a plethora of acts which are considered sinful, despite the fact that they are not all damaging to the parties involved. (Pedophilia on the other hand is extremely damaging. ) However, as they are all attached the same label, this creates a false equivalency between things which are not really comparable.

For example, a lot of people are “sinful”, because they are guilty of masturbation. Fr. X being sinful because of masturbation is not really that much of a shock – after all, everyone does that, so it is sort of expected (if undesirable). On the other hand, if you are trying to handwave exploits of Marcial Maciel Degollado by saying that “everyone is sinful”, then you are effectively asserting that incestuous homosexual pedophilia is so widespread in the society that “everyone” does it. Not only is such statement nonsensical – if it’s widespread, why the outrage? – it effectively normalizes pedophilia: everyone is sinful (masturbation etc.), a pedophile is sinful, so, a pedophile is just a like everyone! Rejoince, and let’s accept this lost sheep back to our flock!

The second problem is related to in persona Christi doctrine. My country was unlucky enough to witness a convicted pedophile celebrate Mass for several years. (The aforementioned pedophile was found guilty, but received only a suspended sentence due to unusual leniency of both the prosecutor and the judge). Given that this was happening in a rural area, I doubt all of the attendees had the required theological knowledge to observe the fundamental difference between the act of consecration performed in persona Christi, and the act of molestation performed in private capacity by the same person. I have grounds to suspects that many parishioners (especially children) got the two mixed up.

The third problem can be summed thus: would you take advice on sexual morality from a pedophile?. Of course you would not. So why should you treat seriously a sermon on the subject delivered by the aforementioned convicted pedophile? Well – I hear you saying – because even if the man himself is sinful (ahem…) the ideas expressed in the sermon are in line with documents of the Vatican. But, wasn’t a pedophile (Wesolowski) recently discovered in the highest echelons of Vatican bureaucracy? So, how can you guarantee that the CDF documents have not been compromised by the pedophile mafia? If the head of a national church states publicly that children drag priests into pedophilia, and then claims that he was misunderstood then you can only conclude that he either believes that, or, he does not know what he is saying – either way, his statements are not to be trusted.

There is a great passage in the Scripture which says *Now the overseer is to be above reproach …] In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect *. This is nothing but a common sense observation that people will not take moral advice from shady individuals, and so, people with inherent moral authority, stemming from good conduct, should be made priests and bishop. Unfortunately, it seems, the contemporary Church has forgotten this rule. Nowadays, the teaching authority is conferred automatically on everyone who can show the proper paperwork… er… apostolic succession. Uncontrolled unusual sexual apetites? Oh come on, aren’t we all sinners?
 
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