Scared of speaking out Against Gay marriage?

[epan]

Well, I can tell you as a Catechist of teens, it’s a touchy subject. We recently had a lesson on what the Church really teaches about people with SSA and the kids wigged out.
I mean, shouting at the catechists, making crazy accusations of hatred, asking things like
" How do YOU know what God wants anyway?"
“Gays are great because they adopt kids no one wants”
“Gays should be allowed to marry, I have gay friends and they are so cute!”
“What if there are gay people in the room? Don’t you think you’re offending them?”

Wow. Was a rough night.
People today have been led to believe that all Christians hate gays.

Nothing could be further from the truth. But this is why so few people even want to work with teenagers anymore.
But no, I’m not scared.
It’s not so much about being “against” gay marriage as teaching them that there is no such thing as marriage between the same sex. Marriage for many people has been redefined to suit. The church is pretty clear that marriage is between a man and a woman.
Young people have a hard time accepting this. In many cases, this is what tears them from the Church. It’s pretty sad.
But, one has to advance truth, no?

As you point out, teens are much better informed and opinionated based on that information, than ever before. They are particularly sensitive to social justice issues. I think that these topics dovetail well with a child’s natural sense of justice and fairness.

The thing that strikes me most about these discussions is that, in the course of the evolutionary timeline of all the social justice issues, slavery, women’s rights, gay rights, and all the other issues involving increased equality for previously subjugated groups, that there have always been religious arguments in favor, and religious arguments against the expansion of rights.

It is also obvious that those who argued against these rights and been viewed to have been on the wrong side of history. Indeed, some have advanced the argument that this is why the courts are moving so quickly now. No judge or justice wants to be seen as being on the wrong side of a social justice issue.

In light of the course of social progress in the last several centuries, it is important for all religious people to remember that those who came before them, and who also opposed the expansion of civil rights have been seen to have been wrong. The religious arguments at the time were equally “valid”, and just as strongly believed.

So, to answer the original post, I can understand why those who are on the less progressive side of the question would hesitate to express their opinions. This is how it should be. This doubt is the natural consequence of understanding the dynamics at work, and the fate of those who have been on the conservative side of social progress in the past.

Legally, and socially, this is not seen as a religious issue. And, even if it were seen as such, then it is easy to find equally devout religious people who hold an opposing point of view. Who wants to discuss varying religious views on what is essentially a social and legal question? This should indeed cost someone a job, and should indeed result in social castigation, if a religious discussion is unwanted or inappropriate for the time and place.

 

[Thorolfr]

After that, my pastor made a couple of calls to the parents of those kids who were disruptive and inciting the others, and since then. these same ones have been all smiles, polite, and eager to volunteer for anything we need. Go figure. Apparently these parents had little or no idea of what their children had already been indoctrinated with.
Many young people have the schools of reality TV and the internet as their babysitters and companions. There’s not really anyone around to discuss, explain, or refute certain ideologies that are advanced in popular culture.
Since then, there have also been a few of the teens who came forward after class and said that they were mortified at the lack of respect shown for the teachers, and in the end, the only kid who showed up in rainbow colors was the one came up with the idea.
She has since changed her tune, dramatically.
As others on the forum always say: pray for the children.

So do you think that these most of these kids have actually changed their opinions about LGBT issues or are they just being more careful in voicing what they really think about them in front of you because their parents scolded them?

 

[pianistclare]

So do you think that these most of these kids have actually changed their opinions about LGBT issues or are they just being more careful in voicing what they really think about them in front of you because their parents scolded them?

I think that they never really saw it as a moral/religious issue. They see it as an issue of “fairness”.
Kids, as you know, are very concerned with things being “fair”. Indeed, that is the thing that prevents many from growing up. It’s not fair that I didn’t get that place on the team, it’s not fair that I have to work in college and other rich kids don’t.
I think this issue of fairness clouds their thinking.
Their parents probably indicated that they’d better behave, realistically. I’m sure none of them appreciated a call from the pastor about their child.
These topics are hard to discuss, and parents prefer that catechists do it. But as we pointed out, since none of them are married, or can be legally married at this point due to their age, THEY shouldn’t be involved in extramarital sex either. The entire lesson revolved around being chaste. talk about refraining from sex, and some (not all) teens lose their minds. Their social circles often revolve around who’s sexual with who, and isn’t that interesting/cool/fun.
Many students feel like they are outcasts if they aren’t in a sexual relationship with somebody. I can imagine that they feel like gay sex is no big deal. Everyone is doing it.

 

[jmcrae]

After that, my pastor made a couple of calls to the parents of those kids who were disruptive and inciting the others, and since then. these same ones have been all smiles, polite, and eager to volunteer for anything we need. Go figure. Apparently these parents had little or no idea of what their children had already been indoctrinated with.
Many young people have the schools of reality TV and the internet as their babysitters and companions. There’s not really anyone around to discuss, explain, or refute certain ideologies that are advanced in popular culture.
Since then, there have also been a few of the teens who came forward after class and said that they were mortified at the lack of respect shown for the teachers, and in the end, the only kid who showed up in rainbow colors was the one came up with the idea.
She has since changed her tune, dramatically.
As others on the forum always say: pray for the children.

Wonderful! Well done!

 

[DrTaffy]

Since then, there have also been a few of the teens who came forward after class and said that they were mortified at the lack of respect shown for the teachers, and in the end, the only kid who showed up in rainbow colors was the one came up with the idea.
She has since changed her tune, dramatically.

Somewhat ironic, on a thread lamenting people feeling ‘scared’ to speak out against the crowd.

I guess it is OK as long as you are the biggest bully in the playground.

 

[pianistclare]

Somewhat ironic, on a thread lamenting people feeling ‘scared’ to speak out against the crowd.

I guess it is OK as long as you are the biggest bully in the playground.

I don’t understand your post:
Who was doing the bullying?
Parents enroll their children in programs. There is an expectation that they will respect the pastor and catechists. That’s hardly bullying.
As I said, numerous times, we were explaining the Church’s teaching on how to treat all people as children of God, and to not condemn anyone. The entire lesson was one of believing that God loves everyone. We said nothing about their choices.
I fail to see where they bully in the scenario lies.
The girl who started it all thought she was being “cool”. She’s a very young. She sees it differently now, somewhat. She has learned that you just don’t pop off. Has she changed her views on gay marriage? I don’t know. That was not what the lesson was about. But speaking out, if speaking out in truth, is hardly bullying, if you remember you are speaking to another child of God.
That’s the point, isn’t it?

 

[jmcrae]

The thing that strikes me most about these discussions is that, in the course of the evolutionary timeline of all the social justice issues, slavery, women’s rights, gay rights, and all the other issues involving increased equality for previously subjugated groups, that there have always been religious arguments in favor, and religious arguments against the expansion of rights.

The difference in this case is that we are not talking about a class of persons, but rather, a class of behavior.

As far as rights go, homosexual behavior is already legal, and has been for quite some time. It’s also easily absolved in the Confessional, along with most other kinds of sexual sin.

Really, the only “unforgivable” sin in the Church is heterosexual divorce and remarriage, when the original marriage was valid (which certainly excludes any kind of homosexual union, which, if it were to fail, the people involved would be welcome to go to Confession and then resume receiving Holy Communion that very same hour).

So, whatever argument there is with regard to social justice, it’s not really with the Church - if they want to say that these acts are not sinful, there are any number of religions who will agree with them, or who consider it a non-issue; they don’t need the Catholic Church for that.

Which leaves the question, why would the Church’s opinion be so important to someone, that they would want the Church to change its teachings?

 

[Rau]

…
Which leaves the question, why would the Church’s opinion be so important to someone, that they would want the Church to change its teachings?

It’s only important to those who are concerned the Catholic view might one day make it to the majority view, and thus end the legal right of a gay couple to marry.

 

[jmcrae]

It’s only important to those who are concerned the Catholic view might one day make it to the majority view, and thus end the legal right of a gay couple to marry.

It never has, yet. What would make it start now?

 

[Rau]

…all the social justice issues, slavery, women’s rights, gay rights, and all the other issues involving increased equality for previously subjugated groups…

By grouping all these issues, you leave the impression that they are all on the same side of “good” in so far as their fundamental merit is concerned. But that is itself highly contentious, or there would be no debate.

Is it a wholly good thing that a black African man can no longer be kidnapped, claimed as the possession of another man, sold like property, physically confined and mistreated? IMHO - yes.

Is it a wholly good thing that women can vote? IMHO - yes.

Is it a wholly good thing that a woman for whom pregnancy is inconvenient at the present time may kill the child and be rid of it from her body? IMHO - no.

Is it a wholly good thing that the State recognise and acclaim the sexual relationship of two men (or women) identically to that of a man and a woman? IMHO - no.

Words/expressions such as “marriage equality” and “Women’s health” (in reference to abortion) are often euphemisms, seeking to name an issue in a way that suggests its goodness is a given.

 

[Rau]

It never has, yet. What would make it start now?

I think the majority view has opposed gay marriage for most of the time it has been topical. The trend has been in one direction though, it that’s your point.

 

[jmcrae]

I think the majority view has opposed gay marriage for most of the time it has been topical.

Not because of the Catholic Church’s opinion of it, though. Public opinion tends to align with liberal Protestantism more than with the Catholic Church - when they were teaching that homosexual behaviour was sinful, it was against the law, and when they reversed their opinion, it became legal.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I don’t understand your post:
Who was doing the bullying?
Parents enroll their children in programs. There is an expectation that they will respect the pastor and catechists. That’s hardly bullying.
As I said, numerous times, we were explaining the Church’s teaching on how to treat all people as children of God, and to not condemn anyone. The entire lesson was one of believing that God loves everyone. We said nothing about their choices.
I fail to see where they bully in the scenario lies.
The girl who started it all thought she was being “cool”. She’s a very young. She sees it differently now, somewhat. She has learned that you just don’t pop off. Has she changed her views on gay marriage? I don’t know. That was not what the lesson was about. But speaking out, if speaking out in truth, is hardly bullying, if you remember you are speaking to another child of God.
That’s the point, isn’t it?

Not to worry, pianistclare. You are not the bully and neither was the pastor for calling the parents of the disruptive kids. There should be more Catechists like you. How refreshing to read about a teacher who recognizes that children’s learning should be expanded beyond Wikipedia / the Internet, that their social development needs direction outside the current culture’s indulgence in early sexual experience and experimentation with homosexuality since such is no longer a big deal for the youth.

I get the impression that there are those who come onto this board not liking the idea that Catholic kids even in a Catholic setting are taught that homosexuality (the acts) is wrong and homosexual “marriage” can never be blessed. Not that there are no pressure groups within the Church already as our Pope Emeritus warned us. At any rate, these individuals and groups are not content — notwithstanding that a majority of states have legalized gay “marriage.” Their wish, it appears, is for the Catholic faithful to turn its back against the teaching.
,
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[Ositokc]

Not to worry, pianistclare. You are not the bully and neither was the pastor for calling the parents of the disruptive kids. There should be more Catechists like you. How refreshing to read about a teacher who recognizes that children’s learning should be expanded beyond Wikipedia / the Internet, that their social development needs direction outside the current culture’s indulgence in early sexual experience and experimentation with homosexuality since such is no longer a big deal for the youth.

I get the impression that there are those who come onto this board not liking the idea that Catholic kids even in a Catholic setting are taught that homosexuality (the acts) is wrong and homosexual “marriage” can never be blessed. Not that there are no pressure groups within the Church already as our Pope Emeritus warned us. At any rate, these individuals and groups are not content — notwithstanding that a majority of states have legalized gay “marriage.” Their wish, it appears, is for the Catholic faithful to turn its back against the teaching.
,
,

I must say though, that I too get the impression that there are those who come onto this board and are absolutely not liking that those same kids (Including myself) that are taught homosexuality (the acts) are wrong and homosexual marriage can never be blessed, well…we are growing up and believing the opposite actually. That homosexuality (yes including the acts) are not wrong in our opinion and that homosexual marriage can indeed be blessed. (again in my opinion along with many others) just my two cents.

 

[Thorolfr]

I must say though, that I too get the impression that there are those who come onto this board and are absolutely not liking that those same kids (Including myself) that are taught homosexuality (the acts) are wrong and homosexual marriage can never be blessed, well…we are growing up and believing the opposite actually. That homosexuality (yes including the acts) are not wrong in our opinion and that homosexual marriage can indeed be blessed. (again in my opinion along with many others) just my two cents.

Many of these kids are also probably leaving the churches they grew up in because, at least in part, they don’t like their teachings on homosexuality.

 

[jmcrae]

I must say though, that I too get the impression that there are those who come onto this board and are absolutely not liking that those same kids (Including myself) that are taught homosexuality (the acts) are wrong and homosexual marriage can never be blessed, well…we are growing up and believing the opposite actually.

Proof that the propaganda machine works.

Make even the most horrific monster into a “victim,” and then don’t discuss what it is that he actually does to other people, but just focus on how bad he feels that he isn’t socially acceptable, and then you can get away with absolutely anything.

 

[shelby_sun]

Working at a Catholic high school and having three teens attending Catholic school, I can tell you at least where we live,hat teens can see and agree with the Church’s teaching that gays should not be allowed to be married in the Catholic Church because that is doctrine; however, I can also tell you that the vast majority believes that the government, with separation of Church and State, accept that they can legally allow same sex marriages and most do not have a problem with it.

Many of these kids know other kids that are gay and are good, rule following, productive kids, while others around them are selling and doing drugs, cheating, having sex, skipping, school etc. and are those kids better because they are straight.

At my daughter’s Catholic school their are kids that have come out as gay, which the school has not condemned, they are simply do not allow any inappropriate behavior. Again, these kids are nice respectful kids and good students.

 

[Thorolfr]

Proof that the propaganda machine works.

Make even the most horrific monster into a “victim,” and then don’t discuss what it is that he actually does to other people, but just focus on how bad he feels that he isn’t socially acceptable, and then you can get away with absolutely anything.

A lot of LGBT people actually were victimized for a long time (and some still are) and most LGBT people are not “horrific monsters”.

 

[pianistclare]

I must say though, that I too get the impression that there are those who come onto this board and are absolutely not liking that those same kids (Including myself) that are taught homosexuality (the acts) are wrong and homosexual marriage can never be blessed, well…we are growing up and believing the opposite actually. That homosexuality (yes including the acts) are not wrong in our opinion and that homosexual marriage can indeed be blessed. (again in my opinion along with many others) just my two cents.

And you are entitled to your opinion. I have no beef with that, since you list yourself as Buddhist.
But when a parent enrolls their child in Catholic Religious Education…you’re likely going to get it.
Those who seek it, seek what the Church teaches.
So that’s what we advance. It’s my job. It would be dishonest and uncharitable at the very least to tell kids “it’s ok…believe what you want…God is likely going to cut you some slack on that one the last day”.

Because I can’t guarantee that. I will cop to all the **** I’ve done in my life…but I don’t want to look Jesus in the eye at final judgment and say…“I led your children astray…I wasn’t true to my faith. You’re cool with that, right?”

I go by the catechism. Until I can ask Jesus in person, that’s my best source.
Likewise, we can’t condone treating people badly. Ever. No excuses.
Also, we can’t assume that every same sex couple is sexually active. Although in our culture, it would seem preposterous to some. I’ve know men who loved another man deeply, and were chaste. People do that. More often than the media would have us believe.

 

[Rau]

A lot of LGBT people actually were victimized for a long time (and some still are) "…

That’s absolutely true. But teaching chastity was not one of the means used to victimise them.

and most LGBT people are not “horrific monsters”

I imagine nearly no-one fits this description! And I hope you know full well that that is not what Jim suggested.