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4HisChurch
Guest
As a Catholic, turned Episcopalian, turned Catholic, I can say with a sigh, I wish there was an Anglican Use parish near me!
- Status
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Eden
Guest
Thank you so much for explaining the differences between these churches, Michael! I’m praying!
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Exporter said:
It is not clear this anyone is saying sins don’t matter - there does seem to be some disagreement as to what activities count as sinful: which is a different issue
God’s ways are not based on those of the “real world” - so arguing from what the “RW” does is a shaky foundation for Christians to build on. If the Church were essentially no different from the RW, except for having tinfoil hats (AKA mitres), it would have nothing distinctive to say or to offer.
It is precisely because this is so, that this news is so disturbing.I don’t like the idea of keeping tabs on how another Church operates: we would be the first to cry “Foul!” if Anglican Fundamentalists (say) came to RCIA to argue with Catholics. If we aren’t “anti-Anglican” for pointing out what we reckon to be faults in Anglicanism - neither are they (or others) “anti-Catholic”, when they point out what they perceive as faults among us. ##
The Bible doesn’t address the matter. If being a priest is not compatible with being homosexual - whether one means by this “having an SSA”, or, “acting on this SSA” - then a lot of priests in the CC are as much condemned as this chap is; any arguments that are valid against homosexual clergy in other Churches, are equally valid, or more so, against Catholics who are clergy and have (or act on) an SSA.
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Eden
Guest
Gottle of Geer:
From the CCC under the title Sins Against Marital Values:
The Church has constantly taught that specific kinds of sexual activities which obviously involve departure from either or both of these values at stake in human sexuality are forbidden by God. This is so not only because such acts are forbidden by name in Scripture. They are wrong because they amount to attacks on basic human values persistently upheld by Scripture, and are opposed to principles which we can discern even without revelation…
Thus the Church, basing her teaching on Scripture, has constantly taught that homosexual acts are objectively always gravely wrong. A homosexual orientation or tendency, however, is to be distinguished from homosexual activity. Such an orientation is not in itself a moral fault. It is, however, a reality which interferes with the complete human fulfillment of those who experience it. Those who have homosexual orientation have as much personal dignity as others do. They are not to be mistreated or subjected to discrimination on that account. Homosexuals have a duty to maintain self-possession and to abstain from objectively wrong behavior, as all who suffer inclinations to wrong conduct must. But in their efforts they deserve pastoral care and the support of the Christian community.
The man is an openly active homosexual. This is a sin.
From the CCC under the title Sins Against Marital Values:
The Church has constantly taught that specific kinds of sexual activities which obviously involve departure from either or both of these values at stake in human sexuality are forbidden by God. This is so not only because such acts are forbidden by name in Scripture. They are wrong because they amount to attacks on basic human values persistently upheld by Scripture, and are opposed to principles which we can discern even without revelation…
Thus the Church, basing her teaching on Scripture, has constantly taught that homosexual acts are objectively always gravely wrong. A homosexual orientation or tendency, however, is to be distinguished from homosexual activity. Such an orientation is not in itself a moral fault. It is, however, a reality which interferes with the complete human fulfillment of those who experience it. Those who have homosexual orientation have as much personal dignity as others do. They are not to be mistreated or subjected to discrimination on that account. Homosexuals have a duty to maintain self-possession and to abstain from objectively wrong behavior, as all who suffer inclinations to wrong conduct must. But in their efforts they deserve pastoral care and the support of the Christian community.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Sea of Faith Network - NZ FAQs may make ECUSA seem almost conservative. It has Catholic priests in it, so I hear. If it does not, I would be amazed.
According to Donna Steichen - see her book Ungodly Rage - the CC in North America is full of unpleasant things.One could very easily get the impression that the CC in the USA is rotten with corruption and heresy, if one read too much of the appropriate material:
ourladyswarriors.org/renew/
- so it’s very important not to look only at the depressing stuff. But, there is plenty wrong in the Church; not that that ever hindered God
##
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Gottle_of_Geer
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Lisa_N
Guest
The problem (well one of them) in the Episcopal church is that there really is no final authority. Further overt acts of defiance are tolerated. An example is the female priest issue. They did NOT vote this in or find some obscure scriptural passage to contort into some kind of justification to ordain women. Instead a bishop who was retiring ordained the women in secret. It was a ‘done deal’ that was never undone. Contrast this to the defiant “Catholic” women who were ‘ordained’ in the middle of a river. They were excommunicated.
Lisa N
Lisa N
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Matt16_18
Guest
Gottle of Geer:
Please give us an example of an Anglican doctrine that all Anglicans will acknowledge as unchangeable truth!
Anglican doctrine - isn’t that an oxymoron?Anglicans are no more bound by Catholic doctrine than, we are by Anglican doctrine.
Please give us an example of an Anglican doctrine that all Anglicans will acknowledge as unchangeable truth!
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Matt 16_18:
Pope John Paul II’s point man during all of the negotiations is now the present Pope Benedict XVI.
He put an aweful lot of work into this, and this would provide a structure which would enable the Catholic church to WELCOME the 10 million so orthodox/catholic Anglicans worldwide who are going to be leaving the Anglican Communion one way or the other during the next few years:
CENTRAL AFRICA PRIMATE: "CAPA Bishops Will Decide Anglican Future. Talk is Over"
World Exclusive
By David W. Virtue
An Interview with Archbishop Bernard Malango, Primate of Central Africa.
*NOTTINGHAM (6/24/2005)–The Archbishop of Central Africa says that an exit strategy from the Anglican Communion has been drawn up and schism will occur before the next Lambeth Conference, with a new world headquarters for Anglicanism in Alexandria, Egypt, because the North American churches will not repent of their actions condoning “immoral sexual behavior”.
In a wide-ranging interview with VirtueOnline, the Most Rev. Bernard Malango said the CAPA and Global South bishops have had enough of talking about homosexuality and when they meet in Alexandria in October they will bring finality to the situation. The Primate told VirtueOnline; “This is not just the voice of the Archbishop of Central Africa, I speak knowing what the Primates of the Global South think and they are of the same opinion.”*
virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2660
Many of these people will be leaving as whole Dioceses, and, in some case, Provinces. They will be leaving as Congregations and as Dioceses/Provinces. They will come over with priests (and bishops) who, in many instances, are every bit as orthodox as the apologists on this board or the Priests on EWTN.
Matt, where do you want these people to go? Who do you want to take care of them? What do you want the Pope to do with all the work he’s done over the last 11 years?
Please remember, The Catholic Church did exactly this for each and every Eastern Rite Church which came into union with Rome.
Are you saying that that was a bad idea, or are you saying that both Pope John Paul II and the now Pope Benedict XVI were and are wrong to suggest that this should be done for the TAC and the 10 million or so Anglicans who will be needing a new home over the next few years?
Or, would you rather the Anglicans form their own church and continue OUTSIDE the Catholic Church until you change your mind about this?
Just so you understand, if you shun them, and us now, as you demonstrated on previous threads, the opportunity to invite us in probably won’t happen.
Matt 16_18, is that really what you what?
If not, could you please tell me how you plan to deal with these people, esp. in regions that are short of priests or in Dioceses where orthodoxy anmd adherence to the full Catholic faith is discouraged?
Blessed are they who act to save the lives of God’s Little Ones. Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Matt:Anglican doctrine - isn’t that an oxymoron?
Please give us an example of an Anglican doctrine that all Anglicans will acknowledge as unchangeable truth!
We both know that the Anglican Communion has some severe problems with heresy and apostasy.
I seem to recall that, in previous discussions, you agreed that the Catholic Church in this country and in Europe was subject to many of the same problems.
We can either get into a “Stone thowing contest”, or we can decide to pray for the people who are in that Communion who are now trying to figure a way out.
You might even want to not be so negative about His Holiness’ attempts to rescue those who so hold the faith from that terrible situation but to support them, and him, in those endeavors.
Matt, would that be all that difficult, or is this constant insult and abuse really so much fun that you’re willing to lose souls for Christ?
In Christ, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Gottle of Geer said:## That, of course, is the teaching of the CC - the PECUSA may not agree with it.
It would be a little odd if people in one Church felt obliged to listen to the teaching of a different Church. Anglicans are no more bound by Catholic doctrine than, we are by Anglican doctrine.
Michael:
When I left iin 1977, it was called PECUSA. Since then, they’ve changed their name to ECUSA (I forget what year - If it’s important, I’ll look it up).
Most of those who’ve left have repudiated the false doctrines of PECUSA/ECUSA, esp. in the area of the Sacerdotal Priesthood and of Human Sexuality. Even the Evangelical/Low Church members listen to the Teachings of the Catholic Church, even if they mainly follow the moral ones.
Fr. Wilcox (the Pastor at St. Mary’s) was invited to give the Opening Prayer at a State Democratic Convention a counple of years ago. He made the whole prayer about ending the evil of abortion. The State Democratic Delegates were absolutely mortified.
Remember, most Christians listened to Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen because they knew that he represented their faith, even when they were Protestants. That was the same story for Pope John Paul II, at for those who were faithful Christians.
Blessed are they who act to save God’s Little Ones. Michael
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Matt16_18
Guest
Traditional Ang:
When Pope Benedict XVI was Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, he affirmed that APOSTOLICAE CURAE is infallible teaching. Anglican orders are (with a few exceptions) invalid, and that makes the Anglicans members of Protestant ecclesial communities, not members of a schismatic local particular church.
One simply cannot make a comparison between Protestant Anglican ecclesial communities and schismatic Eastern Rite churches. The Anglicans are what they are – Protestants who belong to institutions founded by men that lack valid orders. Most Anglicans are in need of the reception of valid Sacraments of Initiation, and that is what distinguishes Anglicans from, say, members of the Greek Orthodox Church, whose members have received valid Sacraments of Initiation since the priests of the Greek Orthodox Church are validly ordained.
I pray for all Protestants to be reconciled to the Catholic Church, not just Anglican Protestants. But the Pope has absolutely no authority to declare by fiat that Anglican Protestants can come into full communion with the Catholic Church without the reception of the Sacraments of Initiation. This can NEVER happen, and Pope Benedict XVI is well aware of this truth. For Anglican Protestants to be reconciled to the Catholic Church, they will have to go through the same process as any other Protestant the desires to be received into the Catholic Church – i.e. RCIA or its functional equivalent.
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Matt16_18
Guest
Traditional Ang:
You must have misunderstood me then. A Catholic that embraces heresy automatically excommunicates himself from the Catholic Church, and an excommunicated Catholic is a person that has lost his membership in the Catholic Church. Just because some of these excommunicated Catholics show up to warm the pews on Sunday doesn’t mean that the Catholic Church teaches heresy. One big difference between the Anglicans and the Catholic Church is that that there is no temporal authority within Anglicanism that can decide what doctrines all Anglicans must accept as true. A Catholic can know what his church officially teaches, but the same cannot be said about Anglicans.
I am not at all negative about any of the attempts by various Popes to reconcile Protestants to the true church. But no Pope can compromise the truth to make a Protestant feel comfortable, and it is up to the Anglicans to move away from heresy if they ever want to reconcile with the Catholic Church. Progress in reconciliation between Anglicans and the Catholic Church will only come about when the Anglicans decide to accept everything that the Catholic Church infallibly teaches. If the members of the TAC are truly as orthodox as you say they are, reconciliation will not be a problem. But if the members of the TAC are not willing to accept say, the dogma of papal infallibility, or the moral teaching of the intrinsic evil of artificial contraception, reconciliation is impossible.
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Irenicist
Guest
You keep harping on Apostolicae Curae as if the decision on Anglican orders ruled out the possibility of a sui juris Anglican Church within the Catholicism. I still can’t see the logical link you are trying to draw. Anglicans are validly baptized, since this sacrament can be performed even by those not ordained. The only other “sacrament of initiation” left prior to communion is confirmation. In cases of doubt regarding the validity of a specific Anglican confirmation, the sacrament can be readministered conditionally in response to a sufficient profession of faith.
RCIA is simply a program of instruction. It is completely unrelated to the validity or non validity of Anglican orders. Most of those in RCIA are Catholics, not Protestants, and some former Orthodox go through the training as well. So it’s not as if Orthodox are exempted on the strength of the validity of their initiation whereas Anglicans must participate because their confirmation may have been deffective. Your participation in RCIA is governed not by your sacramental status, but by your objective need for further instruction in the faith.
Regarding the validity of Anglican orders, the essential point of Apostolicae Curae regards the invalidity of the Edwardian ordinal. There has been for some time a great variety of practice concerning ordination in the Anglican Church (as there is concerning virtually everything else), and not all Anglican bishops have been ordained according to the deffective Edwardian ordinal or by bishops who cannot themselves trace an unbroken chain of valid apostolic succession through, for example, the Old Catholic Churches. So according to the principles set out in Apostolicae Curae (as you have admitted above), some current Anglican bishops may well have been validly ordained. These can be judged on a case by case basis, and any deficiencies amongst the remainder rectified accordingly.
But even if all the TAC clergy would have to be conditionally reordained, I don’t see why this should in and of itself prove to be the obstacle to the setting up of a sui juris Anglican Catholic Church. This is an issue that can be left to the discretion of the Holy See. A fair number of sui juris Catholic Churches came to Rome (or were left after union with Rome) without an episcopate of their own, and had theirs reconstituted through ordination by Latin bishops.
Here are a few cases in point:
The Ethiopian Catholic Church was without a hierarchy until 1961. The Bulgarian Catholic Church was without a bishop until the Pope ordained one himself in 1861. The Greek Catholic Church had no episcopate of its own until 1911. Italo-Albanians did not definitively get a hierachy of their own until 1919 and had been under Latin bishops for 9 centuries. All four of these sui juris Eastern Churches trace their apostolic succession through Latin ordinations introduced subsequent to their reunion with the Catholic Church.
Irenicist
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Writer
Guest
That’s why we left the ECUSA a couple years ago. If you’re a C.S. Lewis fan (an Anglican), he predicted in his essay entitled “Fern-Seed and the Elephant” that the Anglican Church was on its way downhill unless it corrected its decline into moral relativism. He warned that members would either go to the Catholic Church, as we did, or leave the faith altogether. It’s a shame the Anglican Church/Episcopal Church is too weak-minded to heed the warnings of one of its great voices of the past.Last night I sat in with a friend at a confirmation class for the Episcopal church (ECUSA). The program director explained he was pursuing the priesthood and had only a few more steps to go, which was nice, so I nodded.
The program he used was called “Via Media,” consisted of DVDs outlining the gist of the Anglican faith, and featured mostly female bishops and priestesses, and one male former Roman Catholic Jesuit priest who mysteriously avoided addressing his reason for leaving the Church until the second DVD, where he revealed his reason for leaving: he fell in love.
It only got worse from there. The DVDs were all about “inclusion” of everyone, tolerance and acceptance of homosexual clergy, an idea that our Trinitarian concept of God was “simplistic” and that God could also be “God the Mother” etc…
It was nightmarish!!! But it gets even worse…
After two DVDs, the program director and priest-in-training asked what we thought of everything. I had been scribbling down points to which I objected, and I mentioned my problem with the idea of “God the Mother” or “God the Goddess” and all that, oh, also they had said that the Episcopal Church welcomes you no matter who you are, but went on to explain that people are good just as they are, and that they don’t focus on sin, but on each individual’s “unique gifts” (and of course we can imagine what that actually is saying…) and I objected to those things and…well, it all spiraled downward when I mentioned the ECUSA had been all but destroyed by the election of Gene Robinson as a bishop in New Hampshire. They guy started asking me why there was a problem with that, to which I responded there was nothing in scripture or tradition to support the ordination of practicing homosexuals–and then he dropped the bomb that he is gay and has been “living with his partner for 10 years.” My jaw just dropped open. I was astounded that any Christian church could really be trying to sell this.
I really had no idea it had gotten this bad for the Episcopals. I was under the misguided assumption that the crazy things going on in that church were isolated freak incidents–but they actually seem to be teaching this stuff to people for confirmation.
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Matt16_18
Guest
I bring up Apostolicae Curae because it settles the question as to the valididy of Anglican Orders. As to the possibility of a sui juris Anglican Church within the Catholicism, that is a remote possibility since that is technically a matter of discipline, not doctrine. The Anglican converts would still have to receive the Sacraments of Initiation, and their “priests” and “bishops” would have to be validly ordained. But why would Rome want to create a sui juris church for ex-Protestants? Would the Catholic Church create sui juris churches for ex- Baptist converts, ex-Lutheran converts, ex-Methodist converts …
Anglicans can trace themselves back to a schismatic sect that broke away from the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church only a few hundred years ago. Anglicans should be reconciled to their parent rite. The Anglican Use parishes are what you should be looking at as the model for Anglican reconciliation with the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has already been down this path, and their is no need to reinvent the wheel.
To receive the Sacrament of Confirmation, the Anglican converts to the Catholic faith would need a period of catechesis since they would have to make the Profession of Faith before they could be confirmed. Anglican converts need to know exactly what they are professing to believe, as does every other adult convert to Catholicism.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Matt16_18:
Apostolicae Curae was and is infallible because it addressed a very specific issues, that of the BREAK in Validity of Anglican Orders which rendered them INVALID as long as appropriate measures were not taken to make them VALID, and what caused that BREAK. He also confined himself to the Ordinal which helped to cause the break and did not say anything about later or succeeding Ordinals.
The above is what Pope Benedict XVI, When he was Prefect for the Faith, confirmed as the Infallible Teaching the Catholic Church.
Pope Leo never said that Anglican Orders could never be rendered VALID given a VALID Ordinal, VALID Consecrators, the desire to do what the Catholic Church does at Consecration (That’s straight from St. Augustine, go argue with him) and enough time to REVALIDATE the lines.
You seem to be saying that he did address that and that he stated that could never be done… Could you please show me the passages where Pope Leo addresses Ordinals other than the 1551 Edwardine Ordinal and states that what I said could be done could NOT be done?
Matt16_18:
Remember, St. Augustine said, and the Church has held, that, assuming the other ingredients needed for a valid consecration are present, that you only need ONE valid consecrator for each consecration to be valid.
I’m sorry Matt, but you’re comparison falls down because your premise (the IRREPARABLE Invalidity of Anglican Orders) falls down (Pope Leo simply never said the Invalidity was IRREPARABLE).
Matt16_18:
They wouldn’t be inviting a bunch of TAC Bishops to attend the BIG International Catholic Bishops Retreat and Conference if they were planning on making the Anglican Catholics go through RCIA and come over as individual parishes subject to the whims of local Ordinaries (many of whom have made it clear they won’t accept Anglican Use parishes - e.g., Cardinal Mahony). They wouldn’t be telling the TAC Bishops and priests to get acquainted with their neighboring parishes if they were thinking along the lines you are.
Matt, on a previous thread you stated that Anglicans would have to be Rebaptized, because you saw TRINITARIAN Anglican Baptism as invalid. You finally had to back away from that.
I personally know one TAC member who was received into the Catholic Church just two weeks ago - He was not confirmed, conditionally or otherwise. His TAC Confirmation was accepted as valid. At that time, it was explained to him that if he had been confirmed in ECUSA, he would have been confirmed conditionally.
Matt16_18:
Matt, the Pope does have the Authority to declare that certain Episcopal Lines of Succession have been repaired and are NOW Valid.
That is NOT contradicted by Apostolicae Curae.
Blessed are they who act to save God’s Little Ones. Michael
Apostolicae Curae was and is infallible because it addressed a very specific issues, that of the BREAK in Validity of Anglican Orders which rendered them INVALID as long as appropriate measures were not taken to make them VALID, and what caused that BREAK. He also confined himself to the Ordinal which helped to cause the break and did not say anything about later or succeeding Ordinals.
The above is what Pope Benedict XVI, When he was Prefect for the Faith, confirmed as the Infallible Teaching the Catholic Church.
Pope Leo never said that Anglican Orders could never be rendered VALID given a VALID Ordinal, VALID Consecrators, the desire to do what the Catholic Church does at Consecration (That’s straight from St. Augustine, go argue with him) and enough time to REVALIDATE the lines.
You seem to be saying that he did address that and that he stated that could never be done… Could you please show me the passages where Pope Leo addresses Ordinals other than the 1551 Edwardine Ordinal and states that what I said could be done could NOT be done?
If not, could you please stop using Apostolicae Curae as the sole source to declare all Anglican Orders Invalid?
Remember, St. Augustine said, and the Church has held, that, assuming the other ingredients needed for a valid consecration are present, that you only need ONE valid consecrator for each consecration to be valid.
I’m sorry Matt, but you’re comparison falls down because your premise (the IRREPARABLE Invalidity of Anglican Orders) falls down (Pope Leo simply never said the Invalidity was IRREPARABLE).
And, what the Popes have negotiated with Abp. Hepbworth, they have negotiated with Abp. Hepworth. And, Whatever they decide to do with some 300,000 MINIMUM Anglican Catholics they have decided.
They wouldn’t be inviting a bunch of TAC Bishops to attend the BIG International Catholic Bishops Retreat and Conference if they were planning on making the Anglican Catholics go through RCIA and come over as individual parishes subject to the whims of local Ordinaries (many of whom have made it clear they won’t accept Anglican Use parishes - e.g., Cardinal Mahony). They wouldn’t be telling the TAC Bishops and priests to get acquainted with their neighboring parishes if they were thinking along the lines you are.
Matt, on a previous thread you stated that Anglicans would have to be Rebaptized, because you saw TRINITARIAN Anglican Baptism as invalid. You finally had to back away from that.
I personally know one TAC member who was received into the Catholic Church just two weeks ago - He was not confirmed, conditionally or otherwise. His TAC Confirmation was accepted as valid. At that time, it was explained to him that if he had been confirmed in ECUSA, he would have been confirmed conditionally.
If you wish to accuse the Priest who told the man this, or his Bishop, of Heresy, be my guest.
Matt, the Pope does have the Authority to declare that certain Episcopal Lines of Succession have been repaired and are NOW Valid.
That is NOT contradicted by Apostolicae Curae.
Blessed are they who act to save God’s Little Ones. Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Matt16_18:
One of the beauties of Catholic Doctrine is that the doctrines and Statements themselves are usually about something very specific and limited in scope to that specific matter.
Apostolicae Curae is just such a document. It settled a very specific question as to whether Anglicans Orders had been rendered INVALID through various defects that caused a Break in the Orders. It simply does not settle for all time whether Anglican Orders are Permanently and Irreparably Invalid, and it’s a disservice to the document and to Pope Leo to say that it did. In fact, Pope Leo pointedly made NO reference as to whether or not that Break could ever be fixed.
I think one can assume that’s because he wanted Anglicans to remedy the defect in their own orders, to clean our own house, so to speak. In fact, that’s what MANY of them did. Bishop-elects brought in Old Catholic Consecrators (the “Dutch Touch”), made sure that the Ordinal did not have any of the defects of words or intention of the Edwardine Ordinal and prayed for the proper intent as much as that was possible (in other words - They prayed to become Catholic Bishops and not Protestant Elders) and those they ordained to be Catrholic Priests, even if they were all separated from Rome.
They created a situation different from the one that Pope Leo had so accurately observed and reported. Can’t you see how the results would also have been different?
Matt16_18:
And, why do you insist on lumping us together with the Protestants when most of us believe that we are catholics?
Because to do this, you have to make a statment about Anglican Orders that not even Pope Leo made himself…
Matt16_18:
If Pope Benedict XVI decides that the best and most charitable way to deal with the 30,00 members of the TAC who will be coming to Rome, and the 10 Million Anglicans who will follow in the wake of the split of the Anglican Communion is to Create a Sui Iuris (there’s NO “J” in Latin) Church or Rite, will you submit to his Prudential Judgment and Authority and welcome us in, or am I going to have to listen to what I’ve had to listen to you for the last 6 months? or, Worse - Will you give me, and my fellow Tiber Swimmers, sullen silence?
Matt16_18:
Blessed are they who act to save God’s Little Ones. Michael
One of the beauties of Catholic Doctrine is that the doctrines and Statements themselves are usually about something very specific and limited in scope to that specific matter.
Apostolicae Curae is just such a document. It settled a very specific question as to whether Anglicans Orders had been rendered INVALID through various defects that caused a Break in the Orders. It simply does not settle for all time whether Anglican Orders are Permanently and Irreparably Invalid, and it’s a disservice to the document and to Pope Leo to say that it did. In fact, Pope Leo pointedly made NO reference as to whether or not that Break could ever be fixed.
I think one can assume that’s because he wanted Anglicans to remedy the defect in their own orders, to clean our own house, so to speak. In fact, that’s what MANY of them did. Bishop-elects brought in Old Catholic Consecrators (the “Dutch Touch”), made sure that the Ordinal did not have any of the defects of words or intention of the Edwardine Ordinal and prayed for the proper intent as much as that was possible (in other words - They prayed to become Catholic Bishops and not Protestant Elders) and those they ordained to be Catrholic Priests, even if they were all separated from Rome.
They created a situation different from the one that Pope Leo had so accurately observed and reported. Can’t you see how the results would also have been different?
Matt, which Sacraments are they, since you did say that Anglicans would have to be rebaptized at one time?
And, why do you insist on lumping us together with the Protestants when most of us believe that we are catholics?
Because to do this, you have to make a statment about Anglican Orders that not even Pope Leo made himself…
Pope John Paul II and Pope BenedictXVI both seem to disagree with you, at least from everything I’ve heard from the people coming from and going to Rome.
If Pope Benedict XVI decides that the best and most charitable way to deal with the 30,00 members of the TAC who will be coming to Rome, and the 10 Million Anglicans who will follow in the wake of the split of the Anglican Communion is to Create a Sui Iuris (there’s NO “J” in Latin) Church or Rite, will you submit to his Prudential Judgment and Authority and welcome us in, or am I going to have to listen to what I’ve had to listen to you for the last 6 months? or, Worse - Will you give me, and my fellow Tiber Swimmers, sullen silence?
Matt, I had 2 years with the likes of Fr. Joseph Fessio and Fr. Brian Mullady. Please don’t insult me by saying that I’d have to receive instruction from someone who knows less than I do. I’m at St. Mary’s because, after 20+ years away from any faith, I was an absolute disaster area 20 months ago, and I know I’d never survive in a Mega-Parish or in the heterodox parishes that hav e become typical of this Archdiocese, and esp. of the area around where I live.
Blessed are they who act to save God’s Little Ones. Michael
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JOHNYJ
Guest
The Decree Apostolica Curae has been verified.Not by anything the Catholic church has done.It was all done by Anglicans.In the 1970’s the Anglican Commnion started changing.It allowed women ministers,now women bishops. The iceing on the Cake an active Homosexual as a bishop. By these actions themselves Leo XIII was proven Right !
Also because of these aberations thousands of Anglicans Came home to Rome.Requiring the creation of an " Anglican Use Rite " in the Catholic church. Anglican ministers were retrained and ordained as Catholic priests, yes they were allowed to stay married.
Those that didn’t return to Rome it seems converted to the Antiochan Orthodox church which has a Western Rite.According to the last available figures 30% of the faithful and clergy of that church are former Anglicans.
Also because of these aberations thousands of Anglicans Came home to Rome.Requiring the creation of an " Anglican Use Rite " in the Catholic church. Anglican ministers were retrained and ordained as Catholic priests, yes they were allowed to stay married.
Those that didn’t return to Rome it seems converted to the Antiochan Orthodox church which has a Western Rite.According to the last available figures 30% of the faithful and clergy of that church are former Anglicans.
M
Matt16_18
Guest
Traditional Ang:
I understand that within the Anglican community that there are a few priests that the Catholic Church will recognize as having been validly ordained. Cardinal Ratzinger, as the Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, had the responsibility of determining which Anglican priest converts had received valid ordination. Certainly as the new Pope, he understands that there are a handful of Anglican priests that have been validly ordained.
I think that Anglican Use parishes are a great idea.
I never said that it is impossible for Anglicans to regain valid orders. The reason Anglican priest converts to the faith are ordained by Catholic Bishops is precisely so that they can become validly ordained priests.
I understand that within the Anglican community that there are a few priests that the Catholic Church will recognize as having been validly ordained. Cardinal Ratzinger, as the Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, had the responsibility of determining which Anglican priest converts had received valid ordination. Certainly as the new Pope, he understands that there are a handful of Anglican priests that have been validly ordained.
Never have I said this! The Anglican converts that go through our RCIA program do not receive the Sacrament of Baptism. But they all receive the Sacrament of Confirmation and the Sacrament of Eucharist.
That is highly unusual, and I would very much like to know the determination was made that this particular convert’s Anglican’s confirmation was valid.
Anglicans are free to call themselves whatever they want. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, Anglicans are members of Protestant ecclesial communities, and not members of schismatic local particular churches.
Of course I will listen to the Pope! I am only giving my rebuttal to your opinions because I believe that you are raising false and unrealistic hopes. I see this as a serious problem, because people who should be reconciled to the Catholic Church could delay that decision because they are waiting for a pipe dream to materialize. I wish that all Protestants would swim the Tiber! I wish that the Orthodox would end their schism! I would certainly welcome you with open arms if you became a convert.
I think that Anglican Use parishes are a great idea.
RCIA is not mandatory, or course. Exceptions can be made. But I wonder about some of your claims. If you really do understand Catholic teaching, how can you possibly still be an Anglican? If you really understood what the Catholic Church teaches, you would know that you are committing a serious sin by being keeping yourself separated from Christ’s Church as an Anglican. It doesn’t matter if you personally like Archbishop Mahoney or not, that is irrelevant to whether you should be reconciled to the Catholic Church.
- Status