Scepticism about John Paul II's miracle

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Jesus ate and drank with sinners, healed Gentiles, and talked with prositutes. I think the Vicar of Christ can pray with non catholics. Pope John Paul ll made peace with other religions.

Not to digress, but, the events at Assisi were exactly what would have led to excommunication for any one else not long ago. But hey, he’s the Pope, so he can commit all the sins & scandals he likes.​

I think his pontificate was a disaster in some respects, & I hope he is never beatified; that remark about popularity being confused with holiness was right on target.

Abp. Lefebvre, OTOH…

From: traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a015htGoldenCalf1.htm

Even the conservative Fr. Brian Harrison affirmed his dismay in an titled “A Loyal Son Protest, Can a Loyal Catholic Ever Criticize the Pope?” :“These agonizing questions have been presenting themselves increasingly in recent years … to people who like myself do not consider themselves in any way dissenters … (then Fr. says he teaches at the Pontifical University) … I am dismayed at the January 24 inter-religious peace gathering in Assisi. It is well-known that before the first such gathering in 1986, which played no small part in provoking the rupture between Archbishop Lefebvre and the Holy See in 1988, **a number of Cardinals privately warned John Paul II of the imprudence of such an innovation - utterly unheard of in 2,000 years of Church History. **Their concern was shared by thousands of faithful priests, religious and Catholic laity. Perhaps if we had publicly voiced that concern, instead of remaining silent out of fear and human respect, His Holiness might have felt the need for greater restraint in the next millennium. Despite certain precautionary nuances against syncretism …” my emphases]From Father Harrison, that’s a valuable admission - “human respect”, & “fear” of a mere man, a thing of yesterday now in his grave, someone not to be feared (see Mark 9) stopped him being criticised to his face, even though “he was plainly in the wrong” (Galatians 2.11).

 

[aimee]

I look forward to Pope John Paul II becoming a Saint…

 

[Truthstalker]

Frankly, I too am somewhat skeptical of these miracles. People confuse popularity of the previous Pope with sainthood. I have very mixed feelings about John Paul…and did not find him a beacon of hope for the Church. His heresies distressed me as a Catholic.

Catholicism 101:

Sainthood means someone made it into heaven.

Sainthood does not mean they had it together completely while on earth.

Sainthood for JPII would not mean that everything he wrote was right or infallible.

Sainthood does not imply he did not spend time in purgatory. Maybe his hitch is done.

The Catholic church will not say any particular person is damned. It will not admit Hitler went to hell. Why then are people bothered by the idea that it might admit that JPII made it to heaven?

 

[the_phoenix]

I too look forward to Pope John Paul the Great being declared a Saint.

~~ the phoenix

 

[Wisdom]

Tthe most shameful, for me, was the Vicar of Christ praying with pagans and heretics at his meetings…and kow-towing to Muslims.

Just how did he kow-tow to Muslims? Your assertions are ridiculous on the latter he built bridges to Islam but he did not kow-tow to them in any way. And at the second meeting of Assisi they set up the prayer process differently as to not cause scandal. The first meeting was problematic I agree but it was not repeated in the second meeting of Assisi and like it or not the church has to work toward a peaceful dialogue with other religions seeking peace is a good thing with other religions is a good thing and if we thik we are the better religion why not demonstrate that with the first hand of friendship, you refusual to do so is why secularist point to religion as contributor of violence in the world frankly if all religious were like John Paul religious hatred and violence would not exist. Also once upon a time Catholics could not pray with protestants and Jews which is utter ridiculous so there are extremes on both sides and ubber traditionliast who are more catholic and holy than the pope supposedly make the harshest judgements.
The pope could not satisfy the ubber tradionlaist on the right and could not satisfy the progressives on the left, he is where he should be as in the center the Rock of the catholic faith. It is he who was given the keys of the kingdom not Lefebvre or other dissedents who have seperated themselves from the church.

 

[pnewton]

Tthe most shameful, for me, was the Vicar of Christ praying with pagans and heretics at his meetings…and kow-towing to Muslims.

None of which constitutes a heresy.

Any alleged miracle will be well investigated before any canonization. For all who are doubting the process because you fear the bias due to the beloved John Paul II, I would like to point out the hypocracy of your doubt of miracles based on the bias against the late pontiff. Let the evidence speak for itself.

I look forward to the future canonization of John Paul the Great, but would never presume any miracle valid without proper investigation.

 

[Wisdom]

None of which constitutes a heresy.

Any alleged miracle will be well investigated before any canonization. For all who are doubting the process because you fear the bias due to the beloved John Paul II, I would like to point out the hypocracy of your doubt of miracles based on the bias against the late pontiff. Let the evidence speak for itself.

I look forward to the future canonization of John Paul the Great, but would never presume any miracle valid without proper investigation.

I agree with you. Of course this is akin to the Pharisees accusing Jesus of being to cozy with the Roman and Samaritans because they too had different religions. He wouldn’t pass some of today ubber traditionalist test either ohh Jesus your praying for the pagan Roman and that heretic Samaritan how dare you, ohh Jesus your healing the Pagan Roman and the heretic Samaritan how dare you. And yes is the church infalliable or not? Really some people should be ashamed to call themselves catholics if they believe the church can err on such matters as sainthood and have a pope teach heresey - according to catholic dogma he cannot. If you deny these sort of things you shouldn’t be questioning the qualifications of John Paul but point the finger at yourself and ask am I really a catholic when I disagree with such basic catholic tenets?

 

[fcgv]

Jesus ate and drank with sinners, healed Gentiles, and talked with prositutes. I think the Vicar of Christ can pray with non catholics. Pope John Paul ll made peace with other religions.

No, he made them seem equal to us…and he frequently made references to Jews and Muslims as if they were equal to the true Church. It was shameful. big difference between eating and drinking and allowing pagans to use churches for their pagan prayers.

 

[LilyM]

No, he made them seem equal to us…and he frequently made references to Jews and Muslims as if they were equal to the true Church. It was shameful. big difference between eating and drinking and allowing pagans to use churches for their pagan prayers.

NO - he pointed out, quite correctly, that most of 'em have some element of truth. Which, in as much as their faiths agree with ours, they absolutely do.

And also quite correctly he showed that we should not mock, deride nor denigrate anyone’s sincere search for God, or attempt to communicate with Him, even if their conception of Him is not a wholly accurate one.

Do you think a father will refuse to listen to his baby child who mistakenly calls him ‘mama’ instead of ‘papa’? Similarly, I believe God, at least to some limited extent, does listen to and help all who are sincerely seeking him, even if they aren’t looking in the right places.

So it behooves us to encourage all prayer which comes from the heart, while praying that those of other faiths will draw closer to us from being exposed to the (please God) good example we are setting for them.

 

[Wisdom]

No, he made them seem equal to us…and he frequently made references to Jews and Muslims as if they were equal to the true Church. It was shameful. big difference between eating and drinking and allowing pagans to use churches for their pagan prayers.

And your proof for this is what your opinion? Read the Cathechism of the Catholic CHurch which he approved of personally and the book he penned Crossing the Threshold of Hope he makes it clear Jews and Muslims are not equal to the church but have some elements of Truth which we share with them. And we can admire and rejoice in what we share with them and dialogue in a peaceful non-polemic ways on which we differ. We are not fundamentlist we need not resort to street preaching tactics to prove a point, we don’t have to put down another religion to make ours right in fact that is the tactic of the christian fundamentalist and you know how much fun that is and how much you respect that guys religion. The answer is of course you don’t respect that guys religion because he resorts to cheap tactics in order to proove mostly for himself why his religion is right and yours is wrong. Neither St Thomas nor John Paul II had to resort to those tactics to do that.

 

[guanophore]

Tthe most shameful, for me, was the Vicar of Christ praying with pagans and heretics at his meetings…and kow-towing to Muslims.

John Paul’s spirit of evangelism is one of his most admirable qualities. He worked hard to find common ground, to bring peace whereever possible. He demonstrated the apostolicity of his namesake:

1 Cor 9:19-23

19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, that I might win the more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law - though not being myself under the law - that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law - not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ - that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some."