Schism hits church

[MugenOne]

Elaine Cartwright has been a loyal parishioner at her Fontana church for 50-plus years.

Her three sons were altar boys there. All four of her kids received their First Communion and were confirmed there.

Her father donated the statue of Jesus that is placed on the left side of the sanctuary during Easter season.

sbsun.com/ci_14673529?source=rss

I am very familiar with San Bernardino-Riverside area. Many churches are increasingly bilingual. I never have issue with it. After all, RCC is an universal Church. Any of the Anglo-Saxons here have issues with going to Mass in Spanish or Vietnamese? I know I don’t. If I miss regular Mass, I will go to Spanish or Vietnamese only Mass. Sometimes, I’m the only lone non-Spanish speaking in the church. I had attended few Masses in Palm Spring, CA and the situation is completely position there. Churches are mostly 90% Anglo-Saxon with few ethnic influences.

 

[NPC]

It can hardly be called a schism…someone is voicing some understandable concerns about the direction of the liturgy in their parish essentially - if that constitutes a schism, then practically everyone on CAF is a schismatic to some extent.

Of course I feel sorry that some of the English speakers feel left out, but they are in a parish which now has a Spanish-speaking majority & the Church has to cater for them. As one commentator in the article said, there wouldn’t be so many Spanish Masses if there wasn’t the demand - conversely, the English speakers, being apparently in a great minority, can hardly expect the parish to pool all its resources to keep them happy. Demographics change, and we have to cater for these changes.

As to the hostility towards the parish helping illegal immigrants - while I don’t support people are deliberately trying to cheat the system, surely there is a duty to care for all persons who need our help. We don’t know why these people have had to leave their homeland - war, poverty, natural disasters. A significant portion of the American population is of Irish descent whose ancestors quite possibly entered the country illegally because they were faced with a choice - life or death - because of the Great Famine in the 1840’s. These and many people from other countries were strangers in a foreign land - for many, their Catholic faith was the one thing they had in common.

Anyway, it sounds to me that the people mentioned in the report are not leaving the Church - they are leaving their parish, which is not schismatic. Regrettable perhaps, but they aren’t the first nor the last who will have to do some “parish shopping”. Perhaps this situation (which is one of many, I suspect) could encourage us to consider the merits of encouraging the use of the universal language of the Church in our liturgies - Latin.

 

[curlycool89]

Sometimes I get the feeling from these stories that some people aren’t really getting the universality of the Catholic Church. Of course no 2 parishes will be the same, but we shouldn’t be falling into the more protestant idea of “my parish = my church” because a parish is a parish is a parish in the Catholic Church. Yes I understand that people can get quite emotionally attached to a certain parish, but we do need to realize that the Church still exists outside of your parish.

This is probably just based on my own experience though. I’m currently in a engineering co-op program at a university away from my hometown. So last year I worked in a certain city and attended a parish there, would sometimes go back to my hometown on the weekends and attend a parish there (which is in a whole different diocese than the other 2), and now I’m back at university and attend the parish here. This summer it looks like I’ll be working in another town and I’ll no doubt attend the parish there (which is in another different diocese). Before Christmas I took a trip to Vancouver and attended a daily mass there.

One of the things I love about the Catholic Church is it’s universality and the fact that no matter where I am there’s probably a Catholic parish nearby.

 

[glenconnor]

My church does a great job at providing both English and Spanish masses. One of our priests does the English Language masses and the other priest does the Spanish masses, and they split the daily masses.

If it is something that bothers you, follow along in the missal. Mine is one page english other page spanish.

We are all one in Christ.

 

[PA650]

“I have no objection to the Hispanics coming to this country to make a better life for themselves and their families,” said Craig, 67, a member of the Fontana church for more than 40 years. “I feel they should learn the language and become citizens. That’s what my Italian ancestors had to do when they came here.”

A statement of common sense not typically apparent these days.

 

[Phemie]

It never ceases to amaze me that the English speaking parishioners who feel so alienated in a sea of Spanish don’t seem to understand that the Latinos feel the same way in a sea of English.

Learning the English language is not the solution because I’m sure that even if they all spoke English, they’d still want Mass in Spanish. Why? Let me tell you: I’m 56 and my mother tongue is French. I’ve been fluently bilingual from the age of 6, I’ve lived in an English parish more than half my life and am a reader in my parish, but I still feel that I’m worshipping in a foreign language. I can’t wait to get back to my hometown to attend a French Mass.

Being one of only a handful of Francophones in my parish, I don’t expect priests will be lining up to celebrate Mass in French for us. OTOH, should there be a sudden increase to the point where we become nearly half the population I would certainly expect the Bishop to ensure that we would be able to participate in Mass in our own language.

 

[didymus]

Well, in the olden days when there were plenty of priests this problem would probably be solved by the formation (intentional or not) of Vietnamese and Hispanic parishes the way there used to be Irish, Polish and Italian parishes. Now everybody has to share and try to get along.

Btw, the fact that Latin was the language of the liturgy before VII doesn’t mean all was sweetness and light. In my own (very small) hometown the Italians wanted their own parish and finally got it (a “national” parish) around WW2.

As for “they should learn English like my ancestors did” – first, Hispanics are learning English and otherwise integrating at the same rate as previous waves of immigrants, it is simply that there are more coming all the time who speak no English.
Second I doubt anyone’s great^x grandparents achieved really “learned English” beyond a rudimentary level while struggling to survive in a new country. It was the children and especially grandchildren of immigrants who assimilated.

 

[awatkins69]

Old thread, but I live there so I couldn’t help myself.

My solution is Latin Masses. I attend one of the few parishes in the diocese that offers a regular Latin Mass every Sunday. And I will tell you that it is extremely even demographically. Latinos, Anglos, Filipinos, and even Vietnamese are there. No problems there at all. This has always seemed to me to be one of the advantages of the Latin Mass.

 

[peary]

It can hardly be called a schism…someone is voicing some understandable concerns about the direction of the liturgy in their parish essentially - if that constitutes a schism, then practically everyone on CAF is a schismatic to some extent.

Of course I feel sorry that some of the English speakers feel left out, but they are in a parish which now has a Spanish-speaking majority & the Church has to cater for them. As one commentator in the article said, there wouldn’t be so many Spanish Masses if there wasn’t the demand - conversely, the English speakers, being apparently in a great minority, can hardly expect the parish to pool all its resources to keep them happy. Demographics change, and we have to cater for these changes.

As to the hostility towards the parish helping illegal immigrants - while I don’t support people are deliberately trying to cheat the system, surely there is a duty to care for all persons who need our help. We don’t know why these people have had to leave their homeland - war, poverty, natural disasters. A significant portion of the American population is of Irish descent whose ancestors quite possibly entered the country illegally because they were faced with a choice - life or death - because of the Great Famine in the 1840’s. These and many people from other countries were strangers in a foreign land - for many, their Catholic faith was the one thing they had in common.

Anyway, it sounds to me that the people mentioned in the report are not leaving the Church - they are leaving their parish, which is not schismatic. Regrettable perhaps, but they aren’t the first nor the last who will have to do some “parish shopping”. Perhaps this situation (which is one of many, I suspect) could encourage us to consider the merits of encouraging the use of the universal language of the Church in our liturgies - Latin.

Well, the Anglos can find another parish more to their liking, if they need to do that. Mass is Mass regardless as to what language it is celebrated in. It’s good to remember that sometimes.

 

[jen_fla]

My church does a great job at providing both English and Spanish masses. One of our priests does the English Language masses and the other priest does the Spanish masses, and they split the daily masses.

If it is something that bothers you, follow along in the missal. Mine is one page english other page spanish.

We are all one in Christ.

i agree.

my parish does the same and it’s wonderful. i love the music! this woman is just uncomfortable around people she doesn’t understand. it’s her loss for missing out on making new friends and learning about the beauty of other cultures. it’s truly a blessing to be able to see how the light from our universal faith refracts off of different groups of people. maybe if this woman read about the Cristeros and how many mexicans were slaughtered and persecuted for their Catholic faith in the 20th century, she’d embrace them with open arms as a sister in Christ.

also, this article has nothing to do with schism.

peace.

 

[latin_rite]

This proves that getting rid of latin was a dumb idea.

 

[Melvin]

“Of course I feel sorry that some of the English speakers feel left out, but they are in a parish which now has a Spanish-speaking majority & the Church has to cater for them.”

Just one question…Why do you feel sorry for the English speakers who feel left out? I mean, it was just of the Church to support the continuing influx of illegal aliens, wasn’t it? I mean, surely, the Church has made it clear that the lives of illegal aliens are so much more important than the lives of Americans…so who cares if English speakers are pushed out of their own parishes…their own communities…their jobs…if they lose their health care due to escalating costs due, in part to having to pay for health care for millions of illegals who do not pay…if 30% of prisoners in the Federal prison system (and just as many in some state systems) are illegal aliens, requiring increased costs, higher taxes…who cares if the English speakers lose the country they grew up in, their ancestors fought and died for…and built…

No, don’t feel sorry for the English speakers. We are expendable. We don’t matter. It is right and just to strip us of our heritage, our country, our lives, our future…so they can be given to others.

The Church has made that clear.

Melvin

 

[puzzleannie]

it is definitely schism if someone decides to leave the Church because they “don’t feel at home” in their parish because the community includes many new parishioners of diverse ethnicity and culture. If she does not already know Catholic means universal, she better figure it out quick before she presumes to teach CCD to others. This entire attitude is unchristian and unCatholic. The loyal parishioner should be putting her efforts in to welcoming all those who reside within the parish boundaries, and to letting the bishop know of needs to build more churches and establish more parishes if the population is growing that fast.

contributing to the building fund, teaching CCD, singing in the choir, does not give the laity ownership of the parish and its facilities, still less to they “own” the Mass and sacraments. that entitlement mentality is perhaps the most damaging to spiritual health than anything else to a Catholic who is otherwise living a good life and practicing the faith.

 

[NPC]

Just one question…Why do you feel sorry for the English speakers who feel left out? I mean, it was just of the Church to support the continuing influx of illegal aliens, wasn’t it? I mean, surely, the Church has made it clear that the lives of illegal aliens are so much more important than the lives of Americans…so who cares if English speakers are pushed out of their own parishes…their own communities…their jobs…if they lose their health care due to escalating costs due, in part to having to pay for health care for millions of illegals who do not pay…if 30% of prisoners in the Federal prison system (and just as many in some state systems) are illegal aliens, requiring increased costs, higher taxes…who cares if the English speakers lose the country they grew up in, their ancestors fought and died for…and built…

No, don’t feel sorry for the English speakers. We are expendable. We don’t matter. It is right and just to strip us of our heritage, our country, our lives, our future…so they can be given to others.

The Church has made that clear.

Melvin

I never said that the Church had a duty to support illegal acts - the Church has a duty to care for the spiritual welfare of its members regardless of their sins. The State has its own duties towards civilians. Perhaps it’s the State which is not upholding its side of the bargain. I suppose you regret the influx of Irish (and German, Polish, Italian &c &c) immigrants - legal and illegal- over the centuries, who helped to build your country, added to your heritage, your lives, your future…and, yes, died for your country.

 

[OriginalJS]

Sometimes I get the feeling from these stories that some people aren’t really getting the universality of the Catholic Church. Of course no 2 parishes will be the same, but we shouldn’t be falling into the more protestant idea of “my parish = my church” because a parish is a parish is a parish in the Catholic Church. Yes I understand that people can get quite emotionally attached to a certain parish, but we do need to realize that the Church still exists outside of your parish.

I don’t know about the protestant idea of “my parish - my church” but a lot of Catholics have intense feelings about their “home Church” and many get quite emotionally attached to “their priest.” Just watch the reactions when parishes are consolidated or sometimes when priests are reassigned. I suppose that in theory it shouldn’t make any difference what language is used in the Mass, remember the Latin mass that few laity fully understood, but in fact it does make a difference.

 

[curlycool89]

I don’t know about the protestant idea of “my parish - my church” but a lot of Catholics have intense feelings about their “home Church” and many get quite emotionally attached to “their priest.” Just watch the reactions when parishes are consolidated or sometimes when priests are reassigned. I suppose that in theory it shouldn’t make any difference what language is used in the Mass, remember the Latin mass that few laity fully understood, but in fact it does make a difference.

Oh, language does make a difference. I prefer to participate in an english mass. It can be quite heartbreaking when a parish is merged or closed or when a priest is moved, but we need to remember that the Church goes on. You can attend another parish. Your parish will get a new priest (maybe not as “good” as your last priest, but he’s still able to provide you with the Sacraments and is probably good in his own way). Let’s just not get too attached to the parish or the priest to the point where it seems to someone like the Church no longer exists outside of their parish and their priest.

 

[Melvin]

I never said that the Church had a duty to support illegal acts - the Church has a duty to care for the spiritual welfare of its members regardless of their sins. The State has its own duties towards civilians. Perhaps it’s the State which is not upholding its side of the bargain. I suppose you regret the influx of Irish (and German, Polish, Italian &c &c) immigrants - legal and illegal- over the centuries, who helped to build your country, added to your heritage, your lives, your future…and, yes, died for your country.

No…they died for THEIR country…because when they came to America, they became AMERICANS. And they gave much more than they took…They believed in the idea of a land where all are free…but not in the freedom to be irresponsible to, or steal from, one another.

You did not address my point at all…I was not speaking of the “duty of the state.” I was speaking of the Church bringing its considerable weight to bear to, in effect, help to “destroy” a state that exists (The United States). The Church’s actions have gone far to create opposing factions with opposing goals in American society. As Christ Himself said, “A Kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.”

It is one thing to help those one believes to be in need. It is something else to help those one believes to be in need by helping them invade a home belonging to another, then helping those “needy” people plunder that home and its occupants. Sort of the rob Peter to pay Paul syndrome…sooner or later, the homeowner becomes a victim.

Of course, the Church has been around for 2,000 years and seen nations and empires come and go. History happens. History happening, however, is a far cry from engineering history…

 

[JimG]

I tend to agree with awatkins69 that the ideal solution would be to have Mass in the universal language of the Church–Latin. But that still wouldn’t change the fact that members of particular parishes might primarily be speakers of other languages.

There is one parish here that on Sunday has one English Mass, one Vietnamese Mass, and one Latin Mass. Several parishes have Masses in Spanish.

Seems only fair to me, since we have gotten several vocations to the priesthood from the Vietnamese and Hispanic communities.

 

[MugenOne]

In my parish, we have three new priests: 2 Vietnamese and one Mexican. One Vietnamese who speaks perfect Spanish (he’s going to serve the Hispanic community). We’ve seen a big increase in vocation to the priesthood from the Vietnamese, Mexican, and Anglo-Saxon communities. I think everyone is required to learn Spanish nowaday. Like it or not, Hispanic mass isn’t going nowhere.

I tend to agree with awatkins69 that the ideal solution would be to have Mass in the universal language of the Church–Latin. But that still wouldn’t change the fact that members of particular parishes might primarily be speakers of other languages.

There is one parish here that on Sunday has one English Mass, one Vietnamese Mass, and one Latin Mass. Several parishes have Masses in Spanish.

Seems only fair to me, since we have gotten several vocations to the priesthood from the Vietnamese and Hispanic communities.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

This proves that getting rid of latin was a dumb idea.

As has been pointed out, even when there was only the Latin Mass, parishes were very, very often “national” parishes. You could go to a German parish, a Polish parish, a Czech/Slovak parish. Sure, the Mass was in Latin, but the parish bulletin? The conversation in the parish hall? The readings (after they were offered in Latin)?
Latin isn’t the “solve all” traditionalists think it is. The Church needs a language of her own and we have it, Latin. The vernacular Mass, however, is also a good thing. It’s good to hear the Sacred Mysteries in the language in which one thinks and reasons, as our french confrere has mentioned.