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Siddhartha
Guest
There are many perspectives regarding Truth, yes. Is there only one way to skin a cat? Is it possible to be Christian and not venerate Mary?
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estesbob
Guest
SDA’s say i have to be baptized by full immersion and worship on Saturday to be saved. Baptists say that I merely need to accept Jesus Christ as my peronsonal Savior and I am saved. Catholics say i need to have faith in jesus Cheist and obey his commands to be saved. Jehova Witnesses claim i am condemned if I am given a blood transfuson and that regardless only 144,000 will gain heaven, Mormons deny the trinity but say I can beocme a god.
These are just a few of the thousands of different “truths” out there. How do we resolve this?
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happilycatholic
Guest
Yes, perhaps Protestants should give a bit more attention to Mary. But the problem has been that Mariology has gone much too far in the Catholic Church. When I attend mass (as I often do) visible signs and symbols often appear to make more out of Mary than Jesus. I sense that the"Hail Mary" is a much more popular prayer than the “Our Father”. Etc. One cannot help but wonder if pagan goddess worship didn’t invade Catholicism way back when. After all, the first books of the New Testament were the epistles of Paul, and he doesn’t even mention Mary once in all those letters. Yet, we look to Paul for guidance and instruction when it comes to our core beliefs as Christians.
Hi Roy,
You pick out some interesting points.
However, we can’t judge an entire religion on a single “church” or parish. The things you see, hear, and otherwise experience in one parish may not be the same in another. You may be attending a parish that is devoted to the Blessed Mother, in that case then yes, they would be giving her special acknowlegement. You could even be attending a parish that practices bad habits. It happens. The Church does not condone the worship of Mary and states that very fact in the Catechism. I would go by that if I were a person trying to discern what catholicism is all about.
You also mention the *Hail Mary *devotional prayer. It’s always a curious topic to me since the devotion is to Mary as Christ’s mother and that is it. Period. She is who she is and is revered as such in that prayer. The prayer is a call to mind of her obedience and willingness to bear the Savior of the world. I can hardly equate that with pagan goddess worship, unless of course you consider Christ’s mother a pagan goddessI’m sure you don’t, I’m just saying…
We don’t see Mary mentioned in probably 90 percent of Scripture. What does that really mean? Nothing. She’s there at His birth. She’s there during His ministry. She’s there at His death. Hmmm, that’s pretty much all the time Christ is mentioned in Scripture (outside of the references to Him as The Word of course). She was there. It doesn’t matter who acknowledges her because God acknowleged her. That’s pretty much all that is needed.
Your acknowlegement of Paul’s guidance is very catholic. Sorry, had to get that in.
It’s not about protestants’ lack of emphasizing Mary. I don’t think that will play out particularly badly, but now emphasizing their simplistic view of Mary, HmmmmThat may not play out so well. She is *not *just the mother of Christ. She has always been known to God as Blessed and as the Virgin Mother of Christ. Since the Word was with Him in Heaven, Mary was known to God. I think God’s plan for Mary is a good enough reason for me to venerate her in the same way God does, made evident through God’s message to Mary through Gabriel. Gabriel did not call Mary full of Grace, God did. Gabriel was the messenger.
I’ve never ever ran across a catholic who is obsessed with Mary. I’ve have run across some non-catholics on this forum who seem to be obsessed with proving that phenomenon. I think there are catholics who have a special bond with the Mother of Christ. Are you saying that’s wrong?
Just for curiosity, if we imagine all the angels in Heaven at the time of Christ’s birth on earth, how do you imagine they would address His Virgin Mother? What would *they *call her? We don’t address her in any way that is contrary to that scenario. We as catholics truly believe Mary is revered in Heaven this way.
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Della
Guest
If these same Protestants were to read what their founders had to say about Mary, though, it wouldn’t have come as any surprise or wrench in their understanding of Catholic thought. Luther and Calvin believed in the Immaculate Conception. And they wouldn’t have thought the Assumption strange or over-the-top, either since both understood Catholic understanding of Mary and accepted it. The Protestant world has long moved away from their positions to ones they would not recognize.
The Catholic Church does respect the views of other Christians, but it cannot deny the truth in order to be accommodating. Most Protestants are what is termed material heretics, which simply means they aren’t culpable of heresy having been taught from birth to believe those things that are in opposition to Church teaching. And the Church teaches that there is truth in every body of believers, even non-Christians. What it says about itself is that the fullness of truth subsists within the Church. That means the Church has all the truth necessary to salvation, not that it has a corner on all truth.
I hold absolutely to the truths of the Catholic Church but I in no way feel superior to those who don’t. I feel privileged to have access to the whole truth that will aid me to salvation. I respect fellow Christians for all the good things they hold to and the good work they do in the world. I pray daily for all who do a good work because those who are working for the same things are my brothers be they Catholics, Protestants, Hindu or whatever.
What bridges the gaps between us is the redemption Christ purchased for all men by his death and resurrection. What divides us is misinformation and fear. Let us pray that all will know the truth and come to live in the freedom of God.
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onenow1
Guest
Luke 1.
46 And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is on those who fear him from generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with his arm, he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts,
52 he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree;
53 he has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent empty away.
54 He has helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy,
55 as he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.
onenow1:
46 And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is on those who fear him from generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with his arm, he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts,
52 he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree;
53 he has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent empty away.
54 He has helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy,
55 as he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.
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mark_a
Guest
Calling her a vessel isn’t criticism? I can almost understand males being ignorant enough to say this, but even women say this.
All this is very sweet but doesn’t fit well with your other posts. I’m glad you’ve had a change of heart.
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kalt
Guest
Practical and theoretical knowledge should also do to assume that a virgin would not become pregnant in the first place, especially when no man was involved in any way.
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kalt
Guest
I wonder at the notion that 2+2 can be viewed in several ways. To those who accept the truth, the answer is always 4. To those who think there are many paths to the truth, believe that so long as you are sincere in your belief, 3, 5, 6, or 1,346 are all legitimate persepctives regarding the truth.
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Janet1983
Guest
That is something that you can hear from Catholics are lot more often than from Protestants… It is however true that God uses people to do His will. It is actually an honor.
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estesbob
Guest
So you think God “used” Mary? Oh My. !
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happilycatholic
Guest
"Practical and theoretical knowledge should do to assume that a hymen would not survive birth… "
I apologize for the way this is about to sound, but since when is virginity based on the physical state of a person’s body or any part thereof? There are people born without them for goodness sake! This is rediculous and very grammer-school.
I can’t believe you’ve actually diminished The Blessed Virgin Mary’s role in Christ’s life to a question of an intact *hymen. *
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happilycatholic
Guest
Again, it is protestant’s simplistic view that is so utterly hurtful. Very much proof that they don’t enjoy the fullness of Truth, IMHO.
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Janet1983
Guest
Yes.
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Janet1983
Guest
Wait! I never did that. I said somebody else did so (and I linked to the text.)
A hymen can be lost during sports activities… Virginity not. The teaching that Jesus was born without the hymen being broken was not my idea… and I also never said that Mary’s virginity was lost during birth. I only said that her physical wholeness must have been lost due to childbirth…
Quit telling me I said something I never did say or mean. Apart from the fact that I think that she had other children after Jesus (detroying her virginity that way) I found that there were Catholic teachers who assumed that the birth was miraculous too… and that is what I described.
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estesbob
Guest
So Mary was a “baby mamma” ,so to speak? Her only importance was a warm womb for God to park his son in for 9 months?
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happilycatholic
Guest
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happilycatholic
Guest
I think we are getting off-track with our own interpretations here.
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mark_a
Guest
I don’t follow.
Do you mean Catholics are calling Mary a vessel?
Or Catholics are accusing Protestants of calling her a vessel?
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mark_a
Guest
That just doesn’t sound like the God who is Love.
Did your husband use you?
Did your father “use” your mother?
Is it ok for your daughter’s husband to “use” her?
The old testament, jealous God of the baptists is at work here.
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happilycatholic
Guest
I think we have an aversion to Mary being viewed as a “womb”. It wouldn’t matter if you called said “womb” an ark…
let’s not get hooked on wordplay. It’s not the word vessel but the way it is used. It’s not even the connotation of the word “used” in a previous post. It’s the conveyance of the word.
God certainly does “use” us in many glorious ways, but that does not diminsih the purpose. If I am to be “used” by God, I praise the chance to glorify His name in that way.
Our problem here as catholics, is not the words non-catholics use, it is the meaning they attach to them.
Yes Mary is:
A vessel (that carried and gave mortal life to the most Precious Lamb)
A woman (known to God as Blessed and to all the world as Blessed)
A handmaid (of the Lord)
and on and on.
But she is Consecrated to God. We should all be so blessed as to be handmaids and vessels for our Savior.
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