"Scholars have found that over 75% of rites and ceremonies practiced by the Roman Catholic church are of pagan origin..."

[CarlosG]

If the “Scholar” is “Dr.” James White, then I beleive it!

Its really hard to try to debunk such a vague statement. It sounds like this person wants you to do their homework for them. Its best if they at least spell out the rituals that they think are pagan.

 

[KofC660]

The Church did not “change” the birth date of Jesus. The date was never known. In the 3rd and 4th centuries heresies arose that challenged either the divinity or the humanity of Christ. Fixing the observation of a feast to coincide with what nature already does by bringing light into the world again after the darkness of winter (which happened to coincide with pagan feasts commemorating the same thing) seemed perfectly opportune.

I would like to back up this statement with a quote from one of the Early Fathers who even in the early 5th century (Christmas was introduced into the liturgical calendar in 404 A.D., if memory serves) was responding to these claims of “paganism.” I will try to find the author and the exact quote but it is something like this (I paraphrase): “If it is claimed that we are worshiping the sun, what better response can we give than that we are indeed worshiping the true Sun of Righteousness come into the world.”

Again: the feast of the Holy Nativity was established not to commerate the precise day of the Lord’s birth but to commemorate the fact if the Incarnation as it has come to be understood through the hammering out of ecumenical councils in the previous century.

While I agree that the symbolism of the date is probably more important than the “facts”, St Luke does suggest (strongly) that Jesus was born around December 25th.

 

[frnate]

And Christian scholars have found that 100% of the rites and ceremonies practiced by the Catholic Church glorify Christ regardless of “origin.”

Peace,
+N

 

[BobCatholic]

This quote, almost verbatim, has been circulating for decades. Your friend is just repeating it.

Ask specific questions about their claim:

Who are the “scholars?” What are their names? What are their fields of scholarship? (being a doctor of theology doesn’t make one a qualified historian). How did they go about documenting a specific rite or ceremony as having come from paganism? What evidence constitutes this documentation? What published works contain their findings? What year were these works published? Who published them? What other scholars have approved their conclusions? Does the historical community generally accept their findings? What history books contain this information? Can I walk into a public library or a bookstore and find a history textbook that contains this information? Why not?

If your friend cannot provide specific information, then how do they expect to convince you of such a bizarre claim?

And here’s the fun part: Since this is anti-catholic propaganda being spread around, verbatim, there is no information to back up their claims. They won’t provide any scholars. And if they somehow do, the “scholars” cite no primary sources, but rather cite their own opinions.

 

[BobCatholic]

While I agree that the symbolism of the date is probably more important than the “facts”, St Luke does suggest (strongly) that Jesus was born around December 25th.

cranach.worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2005/12/more_evidence_f.html

This baptist minister agrees with you.

 

[VociMike]

Just turn this stupid statement back on the person.

a) Singing songs to one’s deity is of pagan origin
b) Reading from sacred texts is of pagan origin
c) Eating a ceremonial meal to honor one’s deity is of pagan origin

By my figuring, that makes a Protestant worship service 100% of pagan origin.

 

[estesbob]

Excuse me!!!

If you call pursicution and butchery winning souls, then you would be right. If you call changing the date of the birth of your saviour to something that co-ensides with others beliefs “our advantage” then yes you are right (although changing the birth date of my saviour reeks of disrespect for him).

And the birhdate of “your” Savior was changed from what? I assume you celebrate his birthday on the correct date. Can you eenlighten us with when is is?

Speaking of studying History I suggest befoe you start throwing stones about butchery you do a little Research on what happened in Egland after Henry VIII created his own personal religion and what Calvin(who likewise invented a religion) did in Geneva,

You should study some history before you start dropping such off handed remarks. You might find that a lot traditions that have been “incorperated” into your culture contradict your faith, at the very least by the way that they were “incorperated” into your culture.

And these are?

 

[VociMike]

You want to know?

Then perhaps you should study up on them, see for yourself if they contradict your beliefs instead of simply following blindly. Its what I did…

Sounds to me like you made a claim that you can’t back up.

 

[estesbob]

You want to know?

Then perhaps you should study up on them, see for yourself if they contradict your beliefs instead of simply following blindly. Its what I did.

And they are? perhaps you could share your “research” with the rest of us?

I agree that Christs birthdate should be changed, religious scollars have traced it to April so far. As for not knowing what the exact date is, whos fault is that?

April what? Can you link us to this research that proves he was born in April?

I guess as far as fault goes you can blame the authors of the new Testament who didntthink it necessary to share a date. Or pehaps it was known but all the documents showing it were burned along with the Documetns showing Jesus founded the Baptist Chruch…

As to Christ not minding us changing the date, that is really beside the point. This is a guy that died for us, he spent 3 years teaching us how to do the right thing and finish off by having a painful death. All for us.

He even founded a Church to guide us. A Church you reject by the way. How do you think “your” Savior feels about that?
Now how do we say thanks to the guy?

We change his birth date in order to usurp other peoples beliefs (something he told us not to do), after we couldnt kill them off or stop them practicing their own festivals, just because it was convienent for us and we could trick people into converting (never mind thatwe still killed those that didnt convert). Yep that seems pretty trivial to me (never mind that these festivals had been practiced for 2-4 thousand years before the birth of Christ).

The Apostlesand the early Church killed those who didnt convert? Funny-I thought it was the other away around.

It was the wrong thing to do for so many reasons (disrespectful, go against Christs teachings/our beliefs ect), we should admit that and try and rectify the mistake that was made rather than label it a “trivial date change”.

In your opinion-but since Most chrisitans celebrate Christmas on December 25th(The Eastern rite uses a later date-in January I beleive) it would appear you are in a very small minority of those outraged by the supposed changing of the date of “your” savior.

 

[CarlosG]

Just turn this stupid statement back on the person.

a) Singing songs to one’s deity is of pagan origin
b) Reading from sacred texts is of pagan origin
c) Eating a ceremonial meal to honor one’s deity is of pagan origin

By my figuring, that makes a Protestant worship service 100% of pagan origin.

Throw in the fact that Hitler had teeth and used them to chew

 

[mercygate]

While I agree that the symbolism of the date is probably more important than the “facts”, St Luke does suggest (strongly) that Jesus was born around December 25th.

And you should read the discussion of this in Cardinal Ratzinger’s book, The Spirit of the Liturgy. There was a Jewish tradition that the world was created on March 25 . . .

 

[Teflon93]

Even were this true, why would it be a problem?

Basilica architecture today hearkens back to that of pagan Romans. Are these places less holy for that?

Christianity itself draws much from Jewish tradition. Does that mean Christians are “tainted” by Judaism?

God has revealed Himself to Man throughout human history. Would we discard prior revelations on the basis that those to whom they were revealed were not as pure as we imagine ourselves to be?

If Christ appeared before you today and called you to action, would you immediately cease to be an American? Would you stop speaking English, stop driving, stop watching TV, stop reading Stephen King, stop eating McDonald’s, etc?

Why should we therefore expect citizens of pagan Rome to in one swoop discard all aspects of their culture upon hearing the Gospel? Is it not sufficient that the early Christians were willing to risk slaughter to keep the first commandment without also expecting them to reinvent the wheel and script and alien Mass as well?

 

[Zooey]

Throw in the fact that Hitler had teeth and used them to chew

 

[strngrnrth]

its these types of things which really trip me up. Is there any good refutation agaisnt these so called pagan saviors before christ

Try this site.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

The Babylon Connection? by Ralph Woodrow

THE BABYLON CONNECTION? shows that claims about Babylonian origins often lack connection, takes a closer look at the oft-quoted THE TWO BABYLONS by Alexander Hislop, and provides some much needed clarification on this subject. In a scholarly and understandable style, this book explains why Woodrow removed his very popular book BABYLON MYSTERY RELIGION from publication.

According to the teaching made popular by Alexander Hislop, if we went back to the days of ancient Babylon, we would find people attending mass, partaking of a little round wafer, worshipping a cross, going to confession, being baptized with water for the remission of sins, burning wax candles, and bowing before a divine Mother and Child. We would notice that places of worship featured a tower. Priests, wearing a circular tonsure, dressed in black garments, would give those who died the last rites. With monks and nuns in abundance, the Babylonians would be practicing essentially all the rites that are known today in the Roman Catholic Church!

ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-connection.html

Hellenistic Commentary to the New Testament (Hardcover)
by M. eugene Boring (Editor), Klaus Berger (Editor), Carsten Colpe (Editor)

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3817/is_199803/ai_n8794636

This commentary posts “pagan” sources next to most passages of the NT, showing that there is in fact, a historical cultural connections between the NT authors and their times.

A Commentary on the NT From the Talmud and Hebraica
by John Lightfoot
philologos.org/__eb-jl/

Basically, the fallacy your friend is making is that if two systems have similiar elements one system must have copied from the other. He must prove that one copied from the other which frankly he can not prove.

Copycat Thesis
tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html

 

[RobNY]

C.S Lewis stated that almost every aspect of Christianity could be found in pagen orgins including the Resurrection of Jesus Christ… He believed that the devil was mocking and mimicking things he knew were to come to distort them.

Yep. Read St. Justin Martyr’s first apology. He goes into this at depth.

-Rob

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

A member of an online community which I am a member of made this remark. Besides the fact that the high number is probably complete bunk… Admittedly there are aspects of earlier faiths which the Church has incorporated for the sake of its new believers. What should I say to this person, and people in general, who make the claim that the Church is ‘polluted’ with Pagan elements?

We generally do not invent new rituals and practices. We generally adapt those we already know for a new and better purpose. Is there something wrong with this? We all do this everyday.

 

[Spirithound]

First off, anyone who has done much debating well knows that the burden of proof can be shifted back and forth, as any claim can be reworded so that the other claimant is the one making the affirmative claim. Burden of proof rests with neither person by default.

Second off, expecting conclusive proof that the church took a pagan ritual and converted it is an awfully high standard to expect…one that you surely can’t meet in showing how traditions came to be.

First off, the question above is worded such that the burden of proof is on the claimant. And provided our delegate is clever enough to thwart any verbal trickery he pulls out, it’s going to stay that way.
Just for kicks though, why don’t you reword it for us so that the burden of proof is on me?

Second off, I don’t believe I asked for conclusive proof in my post, although since you’re impugning the integrity of my religion your proof had better be pretty good.

 

[Spirithound]

Luke, in his Gospel, explicitly states that Jesus was born on/around December 25th.

As for the liturgy, it is a mix of Hebrew Temple worship and Roman emperor worship.

Instead of worshiping an unseen God at the Hebrew Temple of the Old Covenant, or a known man at a Roman Temple, we worship the seen and known God-Man at one of the many Hebrew Temples of the New Covenant.

Since no one else will do it, I will…Where is this explicit statement???

If you’ll forgive me, I’m going to use you as an example now. Here we have a charge that Catholic worship is a mix of Hebrew Temple worship and Roman Emperor worship. In order to make this claim stick, our claimant will need to show first that emperor worship predates Christian Jesus worship. Second, that emperor worship extended out to the Jewish province of Israel where Jesus worship started, and third that emperor worship led to Jesus worship.

 

[Ceil-1]

Yes, and isn’t it the Church’s mission to engage the culture and change it? Many ingrained customs were “baptised”, so to speak and converted to Christian meaning the same way our pagan ancestors were baptised and converted to Christianity.

I don’t know where people get their ideas from, but they should read and research more than the propaganda. If they only look into their own heritage, they would see that their ancestors’ culture was completely saturated with the Faith at one time-- even the English and German cultures. These times were the greatest for these countries and where most of the culture that makes them unique came from. Frankly, it’s since the incorporation of Protestant reform that these cultures have eroded into what they are today.

Many of you Protestants are causing your ancestors to spin around and around in their graves to think of how you disrespect them. I understand your misunderstanding of the faith, but you should at least keep quiet about things you obviously know nothing about. Well, that’s how things are these days. The current generation has no respect for anything but their own childish opinions. They don’t even bother to research the topic before spouting off on it.