"Scholars have found that over 75% of rites and ceremonies practiced by the Roman Catholic church are of pagan origin..."

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“Scholars have found that over 75% of rites and ceremonies practiced by the Roman Catholic church are of pagan origin…”
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Why do people have a problem with this?
 
CarlosG said:
If the “Scholar” is “Dr.” James White, then I beleive it!😃

Its really hard to try to debunk such a vague statement. It sounds like this person wants you to do their homework for them. Its best if they at least spell out the rituals that they think are pagan.
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No, this reeks of someone not wanting to know the truth, but they just want to create a seed of doubt in the unsuspecting Catholics mind.

Sometimes I feel that people do feel that the “end does justify the means” in the mind of some people.
 
estesbob said:
He even founded a Church to guide us. A Church you reject by the way. How do you think “your” Savior feels about that?
Now how do we say thanks to the guy?

In your opinion-but since Most chrisitans celebrate Christmas on December 25th(The Eastern rite uses a later date-in January I beleive) it would appear you are in a very small minority of those outraged by the supposed changing of the date of “your” savior.
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Sorry?

I raise questions about what man did and that means that I reject Christ and his teachings?

Yes, that sounds like a very reasonable conclusion.

Its very convient to put me down because I am in a minority (even though I believe in the same Christ as you do) and ask questions about the norm, but isnt that exactly like what someone else did a while back?

I guess your going to ask for my crucifixion as well.
 
NotWorthy said:
No, this reeks of someone not wanting to know the truth, but they just want to create a seed of doubt in the unsuspecting Catholics mind.

Sometimes I feel that people do feel that the “end does justify the means” in the mind of some people.
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Sometimes I feel my fellow Catholics spend too much time looking for a hidden conspiracies :whistle:😛
 
Chesapeake said:
A member of an online community which I am a member of made this remark. Besides the fact that the high number is probably complete bunk… Admittedly there are aspects of earlier faiths which the Church has incorporated for the sake of its new believers. What should I say to this person, and people in general, who make the claim that the Church is ‘polluted’ with Pagan elements?
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Are these people you are debating with really telling you that your Church is “polluted” or is that your assumption? Maybe they don’t see it as a negative. The Christmas tree is suppose to be pagan, so what.
 
RobNY said:
Yep. Read St. Justin Martyr’s first apology. He goes into this at depth.

-Rob
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I know Justin Martyr does specifically claim this. I was wondering where C.S. Lewis claims it, since it didn’t sound like him.
 
Spirithound said:
Since no one else will do it, I will…Where is this explicit statement???
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Someone already linked to a rather good explanation by a Baptist minister. Scroll up to find this link.
Spirithound said:
If you’ll forgive me, I’m going to use you as an example now. Here we have a charge that Catholic worship is a mix of Hebrew Temple worship and Roman Emperor worship. In order to make this claim stick, our claimant will need to show first that emperor worship predates Christian Jesus worship. Second, that emperor worship extended out to the Jewish province of Israel where Jesus worship started, and third that emperor worship led to Jesus worship.
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These are all historical facts that you have stated. Do your own research, and you will find that all of your hypotheses are supported. Does it offend you that we worship Jesus the same way a Roman citizen might have worshiped Caesar?
 
Elric said:
Sorry?

I raise questions about what man did and that means that I reject Christ and his teachings?
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I said you rejected the Church. Is that not true?
Yes, that sounds like a very reasonable conclusion.

Its very convient to put me down because I am in a minority (even though I believe in the same Christ as you do) and ask questions about the norm, but isnt that exactly like what someone else did a while back?
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I didnt put you down-I just asked you to back up some of the assertions you posted here. I am still waiting
I guess your going to ask for my crucifixion as well.
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Crucifixion? Do you beleive you are Jesus???
 
Wow, the recriminations come quickly and furiously around here!

Look, even if we grant the premise that our rites and ceremonies were pagan in origin, does that demean them? I can use a hoe to beat a man to death or to tend a garden to feed my children. The fact that some have used it for the former doesn’t make it immoral or inappropriate to use for the latter.

We pray. Buddhists pray. Are we Buddhists?

The logical fallacy is clear. There’s no need to approach fallacious arguments (especially silly ones) as threats to the Faith. There’s certainly no call for anger or anxiety here.

The “You Protestants…” formulations don’t exactly bring Christians into a more perfect union. Protestants aren’t stupid or evil; they just don’t believe everything Catholics believe. Heck, they don’t even agree with fellow Protestants on many things. Being a Protestant almost requires arguing against Catholicism. Since the Catholic Church is the new Ark of the New Covenant, arguing against Catholic teaching is going to mint more new Catholics than new Protestants, even if it takes longer than we may like to do so. It will take longer if we Catholics wag our fingers and yell at them and otherwise set a lousy example.

We’ve got the truth, we’ve got the sacraments—why should we lack confidence and magnanimity?
 
KofC660 said:
These are all historical facts that you have stated. Do your own research, and you will find that all of your hypotheses are supported. Does it offend you that we worship Jesus the same way a Roman citizen might have worshiped Caesar?
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No, it does not offend me that we worship Jesus in a similar way that a Roman citizen might have worshipped Caesar, however, we are not looking for similarities here. We are seeking a cause-and-effect relationship between a pagan rite and a Catholic rite. The fact that both Romans and Christians worship someone is quite simply coincidence.

I am unclear as to what the first 2 sentences of your post mean. I don’t know that I proposed any hypotheses.
 
anamchara said:
Sometimes I feel my fellow Catholics spend too much time looking for a hidden conspiracies :whistle:😛
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Just what are you trying to imply with that message…

Who sent you after me??? 😉

Seriously, a question that cannot be verified, that is meant to make the unsuspecting Catholic question his faith is not really “out there” in the conspiracy world.
 
How was the percentage of 75 - not 75.0664, or 75.8, or 76, but exactly 75 - reached ?
  1. What is meant by “pagan” ?
  2. Does it matter that there are pagan elements in the Church ?
  3. If so - why ?
  4. Is “pagan” being used as meaning
  • unfamiliar (to folk in the USA, the Queen’s Coronation in 1953 might seem “pagan”)
  • pre-Christian in date (this would make astronomy pagan)
  • originating outside Ancient Israel (revelations through dreams occurs in the OT & in the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh of c. 1500)
  1. Can a pagan thing stop being pagan, if it’s included in the Bible ? Or was it pagan of St.Paul to quote the Stoic poet Aratus in his address to the men of Athens in Acts 17 ?
If a thing can stop being pagan in meaning: why does this happen in the NT - but not in the life of the Church ? What moral difference is there, between:
  • taking over words from a pre-Christian Stoic poet, in order to make a point about the Gospel
  • taking over a day formerly devoted to the worship of the Unconquered Sun, to use it for the worship of the Sun of Righteoussness
  • or is the Gospel so weak, so lacking in transforming power, & misbelief so mighty in strength, that Christ, having lost December 25 to the Unconquered Sun, is too lacking in power to make it His again ? That does not suggest that He is much of a God, it really does not 😦
Or is God not weak, but dead, or absent ?

The whole issue is vague, & lacking in clarity, & undefined; for several senses of the word “pagan” & of the phrase “pagan origin” have been collapsed into one meaning - as though
  • accountancy (invented by the Sumerians)
  • anointing of priests & kings (common to Israel & Europe)
  • resorting to fortune-tellers (severely condemned by the CC & in the OT
  • language about holy hills (frequent in the OT; & in Egypt & Mesopotamia)
  • were moral & spiritual equivalents.
  • Some condemn the Holy Name of Jesus as evil becaause, say they, it’s a form of the name of Zeus; & anyway, He should be called by the Hebrew form of His Name
  • Others confuse the goings-on at Easter with the way in which the feast is kept by Catholics & other liturgical Churches: as though chocolate bunnies, & the Mass of the Resurrection, were thought to be theological equivalents - by whom, is never quite clear.
  • Others condemn Easter as Babylonian because the word “baby” is from “Babylon”, & “Easter” is from “Ishtar”
    The whole objection is a right mess :eek:
BTW - by “scholars”, are we talking about
  • well-qualified & well-informed historians of the Church, Bible, Liturgy, etc., who are skilled in the various languages required for the study of the details of these things
    or about
  • writers who know only English (with perhaps a smattering of Greek & Hebrew) who know the Bible well, but have no understanding of Ancient History outside it
    If “scholars” adds up to, or boils down to, “The Two Babylons” & “Roman Catholicism” - I think we should be told :). :eek:
Paganism is rife today, & not just among the adherents of Wicca: worship of country over Christ, love of flag over Faith, is as pagan as it gets. It is no use to be anti-Papal to the core, if one’s attitude to one’s country is in effect idolatrous. Not all false worship is a bowing down to wood & stone - the really dangerous idols are those in our hearts: they are in the mind, but they are as deadly as any tribal fetish: probably more so, because a lot of them are very respectable. That does not make them any less dangerous. Money, health, sex, success, self-will, intellect, nation - these are as apt to be false gods as any image of a Saint ever was.

“X is pagan” is a judgement of value; it is not a description of objects in themselves. A rain-dance has a different value from Scottish Country Dancing, because though both are dances, only one has the purpose of bringing down rain. They differ in function - so it is possible for a Christian to practice the one, but not the other.

A hair-cut among us is a procedure for ensuring hygiene - in some cultures known to Israel, cutting the hair had a religious character. The action is the same - the sign-ification is different.

And so on. The whole paganism issue is a mass of confusions.
 
To put this in perspective, did you know 60% of statistics are made up on the spot?😉
 
6glargento said:
its these types of things which really trip me up. Is there any good refutation agaisnt these so called pagan saviors before christ
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Yes, the introduction on the site itself, which states:

**
Note: the scholarship of Kersey Graves has been questioned by numerous theists and nontheists alike; the inclusion of his The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors
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in the Secular Web’s Historical Library does not constitute endorsement by Internet Infidels, Inc. This document was included for historical purposes; readers should be extremely cautious in trusting anything in this book.**
The same can be said of the anti-Catholics on that board comparing the Catholic Faith to Paganism.
 
estesbob said:
I said you rejected the Church. Is that not true?
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Define “Church”, that can be a loaded question. Besides, isnt the message more important than the institution?
estesbob said:
I didnt put you down-I just asked you to back up some of the assertions you posted here. I am still waiting
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Acutually you did. You raised questions/attacked my beliefs and then attack my integretity for no reason (I have not lied to you or anyone else here previously or been decietful), I didnt attack anyones faith/beliefs. All I said was look into the history before you make off hand remarks about things.

But here are some links that you can look at:

holidays.net/christmas/story.htm
benbest.com/history/xmas.html

I cant find anything about the date at the moment, other than chistmas was originally dated as the 6th of December and then changed to the 25th of December. But I am sure that wont stop any of you from looking.
estesbob said:
Crucifixion? Do you beleive you are Jesus???
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Where did I ever mention that I thought that I was Jesus, or even hinted at it for that matter?
 
I think what he’s saying is that almost everything is of pagan origin, and that is scientifically proven. Beliefs differ, ofcourse, but the same holidays and basic worship ways.
 
BobCatholic said:
Yup. And then he has the gall of accusing us of following blindly when he’s expecting us to follow him blindly 🙂
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Im sorry, didnt I specifically state for you to do your own research?

How exactly is that expecting you to follow me blindly?

In fact what I ask is exactly the oppisite of what you are accusing me of, I dont want anyone following any other person blindly. Especally me.

But lets do it another way, lets call it a test of faith (which it really shouldnt be in the first place). Is your faith strong enough to do you own research about christmas?

Obviously for some people their faith isnt strong enough.
 
strngrnrth said:
To put this in perspective, did you know 60% of statistics are made up on the spot?😉
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Many years ago, I worked for a state legislator who did this all the time. For instance, in a debate he’d say, “I support this bill and so do 80% of my constituents.” He would just pull those numbers out of thin air. As far as I know, nobody had ever called him on it.
 
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