"Scholars have found that over 75% of rites and ceremonies practiced by the Roman Catholic church are of pagan origin..."

[Church_Militant]

When the bible mentions worshipping false idols, it means dont worship anything other than God. It has EVERYTHING to do with a picture of Mary or a crucifix in that you are not meant to worship them because they are not God. The Bible certainly doesnt make any seperation of specific idols or it depends where their roots lie, it just says dont worship them.

It goes hand in hand with “pray to no other except God”, but this very little to do with the discussion about pagan origins.

Can you provide a single authentic Catholic source where we are taught to worship anything you have named? I don’t think so because I happen to know that no such exists.

You really do need to examine Exodus 20:1-5 more carefully. This thread might help some.

 

[Elric]

Can you provide a single authentic Catholic source where we are taught to worship anything you have named? I don’t think so because I happen to know that no such exists.

You really do need to examine Exodus 20:1-5 more carefully. This thread might help some.

What are you talking about?

Take the “everybody hates catholics” blinkers off and read what was written properly. Nowhere in that post does it say that you do worship these things, it clearly states that you shouldnt worship these things and was in response to a post that stated that these things were exempt from the “dont worship false idols” issue.

It doesnt say “Dont worship false pagan idols” or “Dont Worship false Mexican idols” or even “Dont worship false idols unless they are put in a church or happen to be the picture of the mother of Christ”, it says “dont worship false idols”. There are no clauses or exemptions.

I thought that was pretty clear.

 

[Church_Militant]

What are you talking about?

Take the “everybody hates catholics” blinkers off and read what was written properly. Nowhere in that post does it say that you do worship these things, it clearly states that you shouldnt worship these things and was in response to a post that stated that these things were exempt from the “dont worship false idols” issue.

It doesnt say “Dont worship false pagan idols” or “Dont Worship false Mexican idols” or even “Dont worship false idols unless they are put in a church or happen to be the picture of the mother of Christ”, it says “dont worship false idols”. There are no clauses or exemptions.

I thought that was pretty clear.

Try to relax…you may have understood what you were saying, but from your post, it didn’t look that way.

Even so…it still appears that you are (at least) implying idol worship by Catholics.

Is that true?

 

[guanophore]

I don’t have a problem with Pagan traditions being incorporated into our culture, provided it doesn’t contradict our faith; It helps us to assimilate with those communities and preach to them about Jesus.

For example; December 25th was the pagan winter solstice festival, celebrating the birth of light. We used it to our advantage, celebrating the birth of the Jesus, the Light of the World. I think that helped to win the souls of those pagans.

I wonder if the pilgrimage to Mecca would ever be incorporated into Catholic culture; It would help us to be closer with Muslims. Although, I do think, it’ll never happen in our life time.

I heard a Catholic priest on EWTN today say that Peter and John running to the empty tomb was actually a form of pilgrimmage (journey to see Jesus), and that it was the first Easter Egg Hunt. !

Actually, Easter derives from oestre, where we also get our word estrous (fertility). The Pagan rites of oestre always included sex and reproduction, and rabbits and eggs are good symbols for the new birth and reproduction that happens at the Spring Solstice.

 

[Markway]

I think that this is the link:www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm This is the first time that I ever tried making a link, so if it doesn’t work…apologies.

I would be very interested in any response to the accusations made however.I love tradition, but am very disappointed that the Christian Church is split. The Roman Catholic Church is the elder brother so to speak. Would very much like for there to be one church today.

 

[guanophore]

The “You Protestants…” formulations don’t exactly bring Christians into a more perfect union.

This is a good point, and I thank you for making it.

Protestants aren’t stupid or evil;

well, you might speak for yourself. I just read a series of posts by a certain “revmarty” that indicates some of them may be.

We’ve got the truth, we’ve got the sacraments—why should we lack confidence and magnanimity?

Thanks for that exortation!

 

[Zooey]

I think that this is the link:www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm This is the first time that I ever tried making a link, so if it doesn’t work…apologies.

Gack!! It’s the Boettner list!! I’m telling you, Lorraine Boettner has crawled out of the crypt more than Count Dracula & Nestorius put together…

I would be very interested in any response to the accusations made however…

Look out “Boettner” at Catholic Answers home page. All has been revealed.

( Pardon me, but I have to go out immediately, get rid of myhttp://bestsmileys.com/evil/7.gif wax candles, &:crying: sit in the dark until the next shipload of whale blubber hits the :wink:beaches of Nantucket…)

 

[Markway]

I just went back through the whole thread and feel that Revmarty was attacked rather than responded to. What the good rev brought up constitutes most of the issues that seperates Catholics from the rest of Christianity.

I don’t believe that Marty denied anyone’s Christianity, a job best left to Christ; something a poster felt qualified to do for Him. I read a Catholic state that Protestants do not hold Christ at the center of their faith. Perhaps some don’t but the majority would laugh at this. They have few traditions or ceremonies ALL that they have or don’t have is a relationship with Christ.

I was not raised a Catholic but would like to understand how it’s biblically jusifiable to pray to someone other than a member of the Trinity. I have never believed with the Protestants that communion is merely a symbolic act, neither do I believe that the Eucharist is physically the flesh of Christ.

I cannot understand the strange status of Mary in Catholic Christianity. It seems to approach worship. Why does the Rosary mention Mary at all? Why not the Trinity?

What scares Protestants about the Catholic Church is the appearance of polytheism, and the threat that anything, including The Church, or The Clergy, can come between a person and Jesus.

I am here because after many years, the only places that I seem to find REAL Christians are the Catholic Church and in Evangelical Christianity, and I’m not completely comfortable in either place. How much of either system of belief and worship comes from Christ and how much from man? Maybe that’s the real issue. It’s pretty hard for me to visualize Jesus approaching any person or group and saying, “Well done good and faithful servant, you got it all right”. Can you?

 

[Markway]

Excuse me but the list was compiled by Rev. Steve L. Testa. I hold a masters in History studied for the clergy, taught Sunday School for 14 years and the list is legitimate and deserves a real response not ridiculous silliness.

Ridicule is the cheapest sort of rhetorical trick; when you cannot respond; ridicule and maybe you can get a laugh. Shame!

 

[Zooey]

First of all, I probably need to point out that I am not Catholic. I am, in point of fact,an active & practicing Methodist. So when I speak, if I “sound Catholic”, it’s because I am agreeing with my Catholic brothers & sisters.
I also happen to be–and this really sends some of my non-Catholic brothers & sisters into a spin-- I happen to not only venerate (not worship, venerate) the Mother of God. Heck, I make rosaries!!
That said, I think that a lot of us here recognize a lot of Marty’s arguments…because we get them all the time!! Posters show up here, with the same old, same old. (And I apologize, if you, Markway, sincerely were unaware of Boettner’s faradiddles. I really do recommend a search on the Home page. Great info!!).
I see no polytheism in the Catholic Church. Indeed, I see less of it among Catholics, than among my fundamentalist friends & family, who have all kinds of “little” idols in their lives. (Usually a favorite preacher, a pet translation of the Bible, etc, etc, which is honored above all else. I knew a woman who quite literally believed that the KJV was so “holy” that laying a piece of paper on top of it, could send you to hell!)

Now, I am also going to assume (always dangerous) that you, Mark, did not recognize some of the anti-Catholic jabs in Marty’s posts. (here & elsewhere in CAF). Trust me, they are there…and they are meanspirited…at the very least!!

I think you seem to have several questions, & it might be better to break them up over several threads, so that we can deal with each of them more sensibley…OK??

 

[Elric]

Try to relax…you may have understood what you were saying, but from your post, it didn’t look that way.

Even so…it still appears that you are (at least) implying idol worship by Catholics.

Is that true?

Try to relax?

Mate you made some baseless accusations based on something that you misread. On top of that, you dont even offer an appology after your misreading is corrected.

Someone made a statement that worship of the two items in question were exempt from the command “do not worship false idols” because they are not pagan. I corrected that by saying that they are NOT exempt and it didnt matter what the origin of the idol in question. There was no mention of the word “catholic” much less the phrase “catholics worship images of Mary and the crucifix”, so how exactly could I have said or implied that catholics worship these things?

As to if I believe that catholics worship false idols, some probably do. But that is not a blanket accusation, its more an individual thing.

As for the revering of Mary and the saints and praying to them, I dont agree with it because I think that the bible discourages this by saying that nobody is more hollier than anyone else and that we should pray to God and no other. I think that they should be respected/admired like other great people in history, but I wouldnt pray to them any more than I would pray to Robert E Lee, Thomas Clarkson or Leonidas from Sparta.

 

[NotWorthy]

Excuse me but the list was compiled by Rev. Steve L. Testa. I hold a masters in History studied for the clergy, taught Sunday School for 14 years and the list is legitimate and deserves a real response not ridiculous silliness.

Ridicule is the cheapest sort of rhetorical trick; when you cannot respond; ridicule and maybe you can get a laugh. Shame!

Mark, have you compared the list to Boettner’s? At first glance it is rather similiar, at least in style. Maybe one of the “ridiculer’s” could drag up the list and compare the two. It would be interesting to see if it is just Boettner’s list risen from the dead, or if he has done his work as you stated.

The problem is, Mark, through the years many Bible Theologians have claimed to have done their homework, but simply dredged up Lorraine Boettner’s unfounded claims. If some people are quick to pish-posh the list, it’s only because they’ve been down this plagiarists highway numerous times.

Bear in mind, I don’t have time right now to look too closely, so I’m not judging it as such, yet.

 

[Markway]

Perhaps Zooey, but I did not say that the Catholic Church was polytheistic, but that that was what Protestants fear. I can find no justification in scripture or the early church fathers supporting the extreme veneration of “special” saints, (ALL Christians are saints), the extreme veneration of Mary and especially the practice of praying to anyone other than God. Prayer WITH another Christian is encouraged, but not to, dead or alive. Whatever the case, judgement is not in our hands but in Gods and this should be remembered here. Maybe especially here.

 

[Markway]

Mark, have you compared the list to Boettner’s? At first glance it is rather similiar, at least in style. Maybe one of the “ridiculer’s” could drag up the list and compare the two. It would be interesting to see if it is just Boettner’s list risen from the dead, or if he has done his work as you stated.

The problem is, Mark, through the years many Bible Theologians have claimed to have done their homework, but simply dredged up Lorraine Boettner’s unfounded claims. If some people are quick to pish-posh the list, it’s only because they’ve been down this plagiarists highway numerous times.

Bear in mind, I don’t have time right now to look too closely, so I’m not judging it as such, yet.

Again, the list is mostly a legitimate list of historical events. Whoever it originated with is relatively unimportant.

 

[Zooey]

Excuse me but the list was compiled by Rev. Steve L. Testa.

Actually, while Testa appears to be the name on the site linked, it is the Boettner list. He:shrug: must have copied. That’s legal, but its none the less Boettner’s work.

I hold a masters in History studied for the clergy, taught Sunday School for 14 years and the list is legitimate and deserves a real response not ridiculous silliness.

It’s not legitimate, actually; its a pack of faradiddles that was made up by an anti-Catholic bigot… Sorry, but if you take the time to read the articles on the home page, you will see the truth here. (Available elsewhere, including non-Catholic sites, but its easier to find here, because CA has had to reply to this many times, & has pulled all the info together.

Ridicule is the cheapest sort of rhetorical trick; when you cannot respond; ridicule and maybe you can get a laugh. Shame!

Oh, :yup: I can respond…When you get to know me better, you will discover that!!
But when Boettner (and Nestorius, as well) are mentioned/quoted, you will find that laughter is often the only way to answer without http://bestsmileys.com/exploding/1.gif…
I’m a Celt, laddie; we are nothing without a sense of humor. (You should see & hear us at family funerals!! You might be excused for thinking that we’re, all of us, three sheets in the wind!!!

 

[Teflon93]

What’s so funny about this ongoing iconic debate is that one could use Protestant logic to say that Protestants don’t worship Christ but the Cross, since an empty cross is what they typically look at while praying.

I presume Protestants would find that as absurd as we Catholics do the notion that we’re worshipping statues.

 

[Zooey]

Excuse me but the list was compiled by Rev. Steve L. Testa.

Here we go… In re:Lorraine Boettner… The 3rd is an independent site that refutes the list…and yes, it is Boettner’s, as said site will show.

catholic.com/library/catholic_inventions.asp

catholic.com/library/more_catholic_inventions.asp

angelfire.com/ms/seanie/boettner_list.html

%between%

 

[Milliardo]

(ALL Christians are saints)

This is often a misreading of Paul, in that he called some of those he was writing to as saints; this is because those people have undergone (and were still undergoing) persecution when Paul wrote that. To say all Christians are saints is to gloss over the fact that many Christians are less than deserving to be called as such. Thus, the Catholic Church has a more correct view of who a saint is. But we’re going to another topic here.

Prayer WITH another Christian is encouraged, but not to, dead or alive.

This has more to do with how one views prayer; for Catholics, prayer isn’t worship per se. I see how Catholics view prayer in an analogy–prayer is a means of communication, like a letter is a means of communication. A letter to a President is different from one written for a friend. Yet they’re both letters. This is the same with prayer. For Protestants in general, prayer is collapsed into worship. Thus, when Catholics and Protestants talk about prayer, it’s as if both are talking in different languages, since each has a different view of what prayer is.

 

[Zooey]

Check Testa side by side with Boettner…
I know they’re the same, because I have had occasion to check them myself. Testa’s site is a total plagiarism of Boettner. (Which is only fair, I suppose, since Boettner “borrowed” from Alexander Hislop).

And by the bye, you ain’t seen nuthin’ yet, hoss!! Turn me loose on Nestorius, and I have an actual skeleton arising from his coffin at the mention of his name!!!

 

[Zooey]

What’s so funny about this ongoing iconic debate is that one could use Protestant logic to say that Protestants don’t worship Christ but the Cross, since an empty cross is what they typically look at while praying.

I presume Protestants would find that as absurd as we Catholics do the notion that we’re worshipping statues.

:yup: :yup: