"Scholars have found that over 75% of rites and ceremonies practiced by the Roman Catholic church are of pagan origin..."

  • Thread starter Thread starter Chesapeake
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
It doesnt actually say one way or another about Moses being alive, it could very well have been his spirit. And there is no mention of revering these two in a saintly way or any condoning of any sort of saints. Peters sentence was never finished and it was never answered.
They were alive enough to speak to Jesus about His death in Jerusalem.
The Apostle wanted to make tabernacles not just for Jesus but also for Moses and Elias - and he was not told no.
‘condoning of saints’…? did you say everyone was a saint, maybe that was someone else.
 
It’s hard to misread something that is not clear. Consider yourself apologized to.
This point is well taken. Some folks probably believe in space aliens and abductions and crop circles and ________ (Insert whatever there). I have yet to encounter the first Catholic that worships idols…Here’s something to consider then. Are you the holiest person that you know of?

My point is that if there are those who live more holy lives than we do, or are even just very good examples of Christian living, why would it ever be wrong to revere them accordingly?

Asking those already in heaven to intercede for us is no different than seeking the intercession of any other believer, the understanding of the Communion of Saints (MP3 Bible study Link) is just better developed.
Am I the holiest person that I know?

Of course Im not, because we are all equal in that respect. So how could I be?

The people who are called saints should be admired for their dedication and used as an example for how we should live, but they are not holier than any other person. But I already said that:

“I think that they should be respected/admired like other great people in history, but I wouldnt pray to them any more than I would pray to Robert E Lee, Thomas Clarkson or Leonidas from Sparta.”

Thomas Clarkson was definatly an example of how to live, should we pray to him and call him a saint? No, we should admire him but not claim that he is holier than anyone else.

Praying to others is not praying to God, their prayers are no more powerful than yours or mine.
 
They were alive enough to speak to Jesus about His death in Jerusalem.
The Apostle wanted to make tabernacles not just for Jesus but also for Moses and Elias - and he was not told no.
‘condoning of saints’…? did you say everyone was a saint, maybe that was someone else.
No I didnt say that everyone was a saint, that was someone else.

Although I did say that nobody is holier than anyone else, we are all equal. Maybe that was what the other person was trying to say.

Peter wasnt told no, but he wasnt told yes either. Although this isnt mention of Peter doing what he suggested.

Its not exactly a basis for revering other people as saints.
 
Praying to others is not praying to God, their prayers are no more powerful than yours or mine.
The Bible itself is clear that the prayer of a righteous person is powerful to God. Now, are the saints who are in heaven close to God? Since a righteous person who is here on Earth is already powerful with God, how much more then the saints in heaven who are perfectly united with Christ?
 
Hail Elric, blessed art thou among men…?..
Would you call yourself blessed among men?
I thought you were equal.😊
 
It doesnt actually say one way or another about Moses being alive, it could very well have been his spirit. And there is no mention of revering these two in a saintly way or any condoning of any sort of saints. Peters sentence was never finished and it was never answered.
We know Moses was not alive in the flesh:

Deut 34:5-6: So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD, and he [the Lord] buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-pe’or; but no man knows the place of his burial to this day.
 
…Although I did say that nobody is holier than anyone else, we are all equal…
Upon what do you base this belief?

I think it’s important for each Christian to increase in holiness, rather than remaining stagnant. Jesus told us that some will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven while others are great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
 
Lots of stuff in this entire world comes from Pagan, does it mean people are pagans…

The Statue of Liberty is a Pagan goddess given to American Christians as a gift for freedom. The goddes of Libertas.

Nike is also a pagan goddess, the goddess of atheleticism, speed, and agility. Are people who wear Nike product Pagans?

Mariage rings, and other things, the list goes on.

In Christ!

Nike is the Greek original of the Roman goddess Victoria (this is true BTW - not fiction)​

Queen Victoria has a local cult in India - someone prayed to her for success in passing his exams, & he did.

[Fiction starting…now:] So: the British Empire was ruled by a goddess from 1837 to 1901. Which explains the expansion of the BE - her armies in their red jackets are the Great Red Dragon of Rev. 12, who vomits out a river (= the Thames, or possibly the English Channel) Not for nothing is the Welsh dragon a dragon.

That the English worship many gods is proved by the “house of lords” - which in Hebrew really means “Temple of Baals”. Since the Prince of Wales is the 666 - there is a site that “proves” this - the matter may be regarded as settled.

Ancient religion is so simple to understand - as long one is ingenious enough…
 
Elric, do you :confused: :confused: really believe that people can actually worship someone or something by accident???
Because that makes no sense at all. That would mean that we would all of us have to go around, tippy-toeing, for fear of worshipping our children, or our parents, or our pets???
Worship is an act of the will. No one can worship, unless they intend to do so.
Unless you claim to be able to read the minds & hearts of other people, you need to stop tossing out accusations that anyone is worshipping Mary, or anyone else!

This is an extremely important point 😃 A lot of criticisms do seem to take for granted that intention does not matter - that if one is using incense, & as the Romans did, one is behaving like a pagan: even if

  • one intends to worship Christ
  • for Christian reasons
  • & says that this is what one intends
  • & rejects all gods but the Blessed Trinity
    • even if one has to be informed that incense (or whatever it may be) was used for worshipping “other gods”
      It’s as though things used for worshipping “other gods” cannot be redeemed & renewed. I’m still trying to understand the thinking behind this.
If that POV is valid - how far does one take it ? No one will say. 🤷 😊
 
Obviously Gottle you were pagan at some point in history.
So how could something pagan become christian?
I ask you. Not possible.
 
I think that this is the link:www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm This is the first time that I ever tried making a link, so if it doesn’t work…apologies.

I would be very interested in any response to the accusations made however.I love tradition, but am very disappointed that the Christian Church is split. The Roman Catholic Church is the elder brother so to speak. Would very much like for there to be one church today.😦

It worked well 🙂

Many Bible students see the number of the beast (Rev. 13:18), 666 in the Roman letters of the Pope’s title: “VICARIVS FILII DEI.” – V-5, I-1; C-100, I-1; V-S, I-1; L-50, I-1; I-1; D-500, I-l – Total, 666.
Pope Plus X, in the year 1907, condemned together with “Modernism”, all the discoveries of modern science which are not approved by the Church.
Pius IX had done the same thing in the Syllabus of 1864…

1. With a little ingenuity & effort, anybody can be “proved” to be the 666 - from one Ronald Reagan, to David Hasselhoff, Hitler, Napoleon, Martin Luther, Barney the Cute Purple Dinosaur…the list is endless: even Jesus Christ - why not ?​

All one needs is
  • someone to identify
  • plenty of ingenuity
  • an obsessive mind
    V-U-L-C-A-N - 6 letters
    F-R-I-E-N-D - 6 letters
    I-N T-R-E-K - 6 letters
:eek: - which means: Mr. Spock = the 666. I reckon this PROVES St. John had TV. 😃

The whole “IDing the 666” thing is badly flawed - identifying the 666, depends on the knowledge one has: but if the 666 is to appear in 2421 AD, one has no way to know this, so one cannot allow for that possibility. But if that is going to be the case, IDs of modern baddies as the 666 are going to be wrong.

Or is there to be a succession of 666s ?

Taking Rev. 17 to mean the Pope is all very well - but what happens if a giganta-tyrant appears, who kills 70 million Chinese, or 60 million people in the Soviet Union ? I seem to have described Mao Tse Tung & Josef Stalin. For two men to “liquidate” 130 million people in a mere 47 years, from 1929 to 1976, is quite an achievement - it’s many times the number of “kills” notched up by 1900 years of Popes.

People always ID the baddies of their own time as the final, bloodiest, supreme servants of satan - it never seems to occur to them, that for all anyone knows, things may become far worse. It is not the Popes who are killing tens of millions through abortion. Nor did they start the massive slaughter of WW1, which was surpassed by that of WW2.

If the Papacy is the blood-drenched whore of Rev. 17 - it has a pretty odd way of showing it. Unless there is a whole regiment of Babylons the Great St.John forget to mention.

2. The second entry above is seriously inaccurate - someone, at some stage, has not made sure of the facts. They could do this easily, by reading both documents - both of which can be found at papalencyclicals.net
 
This doesn’t sound like Lewis on the foreshadowings and “good dreams” of pagan myth. Where does he say this? (I know—I don’t like it either when people make me dig through my library looking for something. Sorry.) :hypno:
Here are a few quotes from Lewis:

from a letter of October 18, 1931
Now what Dyson and Tolkien showed me was this: that if I met the idea of sacrifice in a Pagan story I didn’t mind it at all: again, that if I met the idea of a god sacrificing himself to himself . . . I like it very much and was mysteriously moved by it: again, that the idea of the dying and reviving god (Balder, Adonis, Bacchus) similarly moved me provided I met it anywhere except in the Gospels. The reason was that in Pagan stories I was prepared to feel the myth as profound and suggestive of meanings beyond my grasp even tho’ I could not say in cold prose ‘what it meant’.
Now the story of Christ is simply a true myth: a myth working on us in the same way as the others, but with this tremendous difference that it really happened: and one must be content to accept it in the same way, remembering that it is God’s myth where the others are men’s myth: i.e. the Pagan stories are God expressing Himself through the minds of poets, using such images as He found there, while Christianity is God expressing Himself through what we call ‘real things’. Therefore it is true, not in the sense of being a ‘description’ of God (that no finite mind could take in) but in the sense of being the way in which God chooses to (or can) appear to our faculties. The ‘doctrines’ we get out of the true myths are of course less true: they are translations into our concepts and ideas of the wh. God has already expressed in a language more adequate, namely the actual incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection. Does this amount to a belief in Christianity? At any rate I am now certain (a) That this Christian story is to be approached, in a sense, as I approach the other myths. (b) That it is the most important and full of meaning. I am also nearly certain that it really happened.

from the essay “Myth Became Fact” (1944)
The heart of Christianity is a myth which is also a fact. The old myth of the Dying God, without ceasing to be myth, comes down from the heaven of legend and imagination to the earth of history. It happens–at a particular date, in a particular place, followed by definable historical consequences. We pass from a Balder or an Osiris, dying nobody knows when or where, to a historical Person crucified (it is all in order) under Pontius Pilate. By becoming fact it does not cease to be myth: that is the miracle. I suspect that men have sometimes derived more spiritual sustenance from myths they did not believe than from the religion they professed. To be truly Christian we must both assent to the historical fact and also receive the myth (fact though it has become) with the same imaginative embrace which we accord to all myth. The one is hardly more necessary than the other.

from the “Preface” to George Macdonald: An Anthology (1946)
[Myth] may even be one of the greatest arts; for it produces works which give . . . as much delight . . . as much wisdom and strength as the works of the greatest poets. . . . It goes beyond the expression of things we have already felt. It arouses in us sensations we have never had before, never anticipated having, as though we had broken out of our normal mode of consciousness and ‘possessed joys not promised to our birth!’ It gets under our skin, hits us at a level deeper than our thoughts or even our passions, troubles oldest certainties till all questions are reopened, and in general shocks us more fully awake than we are for most of our lives.
 
Perhaps Zooey, but I did not say that the Catholic Church was polytheistic, but that that was what Protestants fear. I can find no justification in scripture or the early church fathers supporting the extreme veneration of “special” saints, (ALL Christians are saints), the extreme veneration of Mary and especially the practice of praying to anyone other than God. Prayer WITH another Christian is encouraged, but not to, dead or alive. Whatever the case, judgement is not in our hands but in Gods and this should be remembered here. Maybe especially here.

They aren’t “special”, in a way - they are related to the Church, in roughly the same way as the folk in Hebrews 11 were to Israel.​

**All **of Israel was to be a “holy people” - King Manasseh of Judah, or Amon his son, were conspicuously no such thing; to name no others.

OTOH, the folk in Hebrews 11 include prophets, of whom many were killed by the “holy people” - Urijah the prophet, for example.

So the fact that the nation was a holy people, was perfectly compatible with great unholiness of many of them. And with some of them being outstanding as godly & faithful men.

So with the Church - all Christians are sanctified by the Blood of Christ, all are “a people for His own possession”, a people “set apart” by Him, to be His. But not all live as we ought. Those who do, are the Saints - they are holy by vocation, as we all are; &, by life in Christ, as all are called to be, but not all are.

The Saints known to the Church are Christians in name & reality on earth - others, in name only; others, in reality only.

The early Fathers honoured the martyrs as Saints - such as Antipas, or Stephen, or Peter, or the Baptist: or the other John.

We know the Saints are loved by God for He has honoured them, just as He honoured His Son, their Lord & Creator & Pattern.

The “Martyrdom of Polycarp” (written about 155 ?) deals with this fear of polytheism:

17:2
So he put forward Nicetes, the father of Herod and brother of Alce, to plead with the magistrate not to give up his body, “lest,” so it was said, “they should abandon the crucified one and begin to worship this man” – this being done at the instigation and urgent entreaty of the Jews, who also watched when we were about to take it from the fire, not knowing that it will be impossible for us either to forsake at any time the Christ who suffered for the salvation of the whole world of those that are saved – suffered though faultless for sinners – nor to worship any other.
ministries.tliquest.net/theology/apocryphas/nt/martyr.htm
 
I just went back through the whole thread and feel that Revmarty was attacked rather than responded to. What the good rev brought up constitutes most of the issues that seperates Catholics from the rest of Christianity.
It is not my intention to attack anyone. I do have some rather vigorous response to revmarty’s positions, though, and his manner.
I don’t believe that Marty denied anyone’s Christianity, a job best left to Christ; something a poster felt qualified to do for Him.
I read that too. I am not sure that revmarty does believe Catholics are Christians. However, that is off topic in this thread.
I read a Catholic state that Protestants do not hold Christ at the center of their faith. Perhaps some don’t but the majority would laugh at this. They have few traditions or ceremonies ALL that they have or don’t have is a relationship with Christ.
Some protestants have the Bible at the center, and don’t necessarily equate that as Jesus. However, I agree with you that most Protestants are Jesus Centered. They do have all kinds of traditions, they just don’t recognize them as such, so deny that they exist. Sola fide and Sola Scriptura are traditions.
I was not raised a Catholic but would like to understand how it’s biblically jusifiable to pray to someone other than a member of the Trinity.
This is a good question, but belongs on another thread.
I have never believed with the Protestants that communion is merely a symbolic act, neither do I believe that the Eucharist is physically the flesh of Christ.
Transubstantiation is a difficult concept to grasp. This is also a good question, and also belongs on another thread.
I cannot understand the strange status of Mary in Catholic Christianity. It seems to approach worship. Why does the Rosary mention Mary at all? Why not the Trinity?
I have trouble with this myself, and have often thought it is a way to balance an otherwise overly male dominated religion. I don’t care for praying the rosary myself, and the veneration of Mary does not commend itself to me. I also agree with you that some people do seem to cross the line from veneration into worship. In some cultures, I think she has taken the place of the female goddess.
What scares Protestants about the Catholic Church is the appearance of polytheism, and the threat that anything, including The Church, or The Clergy, can come between a person and Jesus.
Perfect love casts out all fear!
I am here because after many years, the only places that I seem to find REAL Christians are the Catholic Church and in Evangelical Christianity, and I’m not completely comfortable in either place.
Welcome to the forum Markway. I encourage you to take these questions and concerns you have expressed here, all good ones, and post them in the various fora most appropriate to the topics. I am sure if you have an open mind, you will learn a lot. You may not agree with it all, but you will find substantial dialogue.
How much of either system of belief and worship comes from Christ and how much from man? Maybe that’s the real issue. It’s pretty hard for me to visualize Jesus approaching any person or group and saying, “Well done good and faithful servant, you got it all right”. Can you?
I cannot visualize that either. Everywhere in scripture it states that each of us will be judged individually, on the basis of our deeds, not as a group.
 
I think that this is the link:www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm This is the first time that I ever tried making a link, so if it doesn’t work…apologies.

I would be very interested in any response to the accusations made however.I love tradition, but am very disappointed that the Christian Church is split. The Roman Catholic Church is the elder brother so to speak. Would very much like for there to be one church today.😦
Are you speaking about the Eastern Orthodox? I think a good case can be made that they are actually the elder brother.

Since it is against forum rules to promote anticatholic websites, maybe you could bring your concerns and we can have a separate thread for each? You seem very sincere in your inquiry. Anyone who understands Jesus heart will want the church to be One.
 
As for the revering of Mary and the saints and praying to them, I dont agree with it because I think that the bible discourages this by saying that nobody is more hollier than anyone else and that we should pray to God and no other.
Can you please show in the Bible where it says no one is holier than anyone else,and also where it says that we should not ask others to pray for us?
I think that they should be respected/admired like other great people in history, but I wouldnt pray to them any more than I would pray to Robert E Lee, Thomas Clarkson or Leonidas from Sparta.
I think you are just taking the word “pray” out of context. It is no different than asking intercession (prayer) from anyone whose prayer life you respect.
 
Peter a disciple of Jesus preached filled with the spirit 3000 people responded and where added to the Kingdom of God, and this became a trend 1000’s were being added to thew kingdom and the romans yes killed these true christians not Catholics, Christians but they continued to grow in number and so if you can’t feed them to the Lions, Join them, so the Romans being enemy’s of the Christian movement, embraced it so as to control it. makes sense, thank you
Hmm. I think I was correct in my earlier speculations that you do not consider Catholics “true Christians”.

It appears that your understanding of Christian history is somewhat lacking, revmarty.

This is probably off topic, but could you please explain why you think Catholics are not “true Christians”, and what other type of “Christians” there were at the time?

While we are on the subject, can you please explain how the Romans embraced Christianity in order to “control it” and how that was done? This is probably all off topic in this thread, but just in case it relates to pagan rituals I thought I would ask it here.
 
YOU CAN’T BEAT THEM JOIN THEM, AN AS THE GOVERNMENT TAKE AWAY THERE THREAT FROM WITHIN, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ARE SOCIALLY DRIVEN NOT SPIRIT DRIVEN. THEIR PLAN (THE ROMANS) WORKED, PEOPLE BELIEVE MORE IN THE READINGS OF THEIR CHURCH FATHERS? THEN THEY DO THE BIBLE, WOW THOSE ROMANS WERE SMART…
This seems like a very judgemental statement for you to make, revmarty. I am curious, how does one tell when another person is “spirit driven”, and upon what evidence did you base your assertion that Catholics are not that way?

This is probably way off topic in this thread, unless you are making your case based upon the idea that they practice pagan rites.
 
I think that this is the link:www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm This is the first time that I ever tried making a link, so if it doesn’t work…apologies.

I would be very interested in any response to the accusations made however.I love tradition, but am very disappointed that the Christian Church is split. The Roman Catholic Church is the elder brother so to speak. Would very much like for there to be one church today.😦
There IS one Church, Markway; the divisions are wounds in the Body. What Mary found at the feet of Jesus – the “one thing necessary” – is the One Thing: the Person of Jesus Christ: at his feet, on his terms, in his Church. The visible ‘oneness’ can be realized only in that place.

Catholics tend to think of the Catholic Church as the mother rather than the elder brother. For me, when I came into her, it was part of the commandment to honor thy father and my mother. But that’s just a personal take on it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top