Scholars raise concerns over Pope Francis remarks on how doctrine develops

[Wandile]

Pope Francis laid out his understanding of the development of Catholic doctrine in a recent speech in which he called the death penalty "contrary to the Gospel.” The Pope’s remarks have alarmed a number of Catholic professors and academics who claim that his understanding of doctrine and its development appears to depart from what the Church teaches on this matter.

He then went on to present his understanding of how doctrine develops.

A “harmonious development of doctrine demands that we cease to defend arguments that now appear clearly contrary to the new understanding of Christian truth,” he said.

Link here Scholars raise concerns over Pope Francis remarks on how doctrine develops | News | LifeSite

Pope St Pius X said in his oath against modernism (all priests had to make this oath) :

_ “Fourthly, I sincerely hold that the doctrine of faith was hande down to us from the apostles through the orthodox Fathers in exactly the same meaning and always in the same purport. Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical’ misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously.”_

Note: Pope St Pius X endorsed Cardinal Henry Newman’s “development of doctrine” which is the understanding of doctrines being held the same in all ages but just getting a deeper understanding of those doctrines. Like how th words at the annunciation always have been understood as an affirmation of Our Lady’s sinlessness but that through doctrinal development it logically lead to the church concluding she was immaculately conceived.

The issue is whether the Pope is teaching doctrinal development or evolution. From his words and the scholars suggestions, it definitely seems like the latter.

 

[Spyridon]

I find it ironic that a “pro life” website is essentially arguing that the death penalty is a good thing. And that’s what it boils down to, don’t get it twisted.

To claim you are “pro life” yet support the death penalty is to entirely miss the point of being pro life. Pro life does not mean you simply support what you judge to be “innocent” life - it means supporting, upholding, and protecting all Life, PERIOD.

I take this concept so far as to even apply it to insects - if I see a beetle or a spider, I will do my best to transport it outside instead of taking its life. I am vehemently pro life - which means I am anti death penalty, anti abortion, anti euthanasia, pro animal rights, pro conservation of wildlife and nature, etc. Life in any and all forms must be protected at all costs.

Life is a reflection of God, since God is Life.

God is the Source of All Life, the Sustainer of All Life, and both the Origin and Destination of all Human Life.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Best post I have read in a long Time.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

A “harmonious development of doctrine demands that we cease to defend arguments that now appear clearly contrary to the new understanding of Christian truth,” he said.

The anti-Church is now becoming more visible and active. Pope Francis is a blessing in our time. For he reveals and is now exposing those who side on the anti-Church and those who remain faithful.

This new anti-Church development of (man making )doctrine replacing a lie for the Truth; Example, Homosexuality, abortion, death penalty, euthanasia, feminism, contraception to name a few.

This anti-Church Demands that the True Church “cease to defend arguments that now appear clearly contrary to the new understanding of Christian truth”.

I love the way God works in mysterious ways. When God speaking through the Pope begins to separate the goats from the sheep.

The “NEW UNDERSTANDING of CHRISTIAN TRUTH”, notice Pope Francis here does not use the term FAITH in place of new Christian TRUTH. Had Pope Francis used the term Faith in place of Truth, we will not be having this discussion. Thus Pope Francis is drawing battle lines between, Truth divinely revealed by God within the Church and the “new understanding of Christian Truth” being taught by the anti-Church.

Pope Francis is speaking about the anti-Church and to those bishops, priest, religious and leaders of laity, who have succumbed to a new understanding of Christian truth = replacing Truth revealed by God with a lie.
Calling this new anti-church doctrine understanding that is using “A harmonious development of doctrine” to justify the new anti-church understanding of it’s own Christian truth.

Some have read Pope Francis quote as one in support of the anti-church view that supports a “new understanding of Christian truth”. Pope Francis to date does not clarify his questionable public statements. I love this about Pope Francis, because there will be a time and place for this. I pray when Pope Francis makes clarification in exposing what is the anti-Church and the True Church. I pray for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see will not be moved by every wind of doctrine invented by men, it will be these faithful who do battle with evil powers and principalities.

We Christians in the West are not immune from the atrocities and anti-Christ persecution against our brothers and sisters in the East. Although the Eastern Church is met with physical persecution. We in the Western will be met with both the evil powers and principalities exchanging a Truth for a Lie, as well as a physical persecution, as prophets have foretold, sometimes within our own members.

 

[Rau]

Pro life does not mean you simply support what you judge to be “innocent” life - it means supporting, upholding, and protecting all Life, PERIOD.

“Pro life” is a term coined in and for a particular context. To claim it in fact carries deep and independent meaning is fanciful. By all means set out a view on what our attitude to life should be, but don’t claim some hypocrisy on the part of others who use the term pro life in its original context.

 

[Rau]

This new anti-Church development of (man making )doctrine replacing a lie for the Truth; Example, Homosexuality, abortion, death penalty, euthanasia, feminism, contraception to name a few.

On what basis do you include the “death penalty” in a list alongside intrinsic evils such as abortion, euthanasia and contraception? Is it your assertion - contrary to the teaching of the Church, that the death penalty is intrinsically evil - meaning always and in every circumstance a wrong act?

 

[Wandile]

I think it’s telling that the Church has always held up the legitimacy of Capital punishment and that even scripture allows it. The church has always seen it as protecting life.
St Thomas Aquinas and St Augustine held its legitimacy up too.

That’s why it’s such an issue that now the Pope is suddenly saying it’s wrong? Was the church and scripture not infallible back then and only now it is under the reign of Pope Francis?

In 1952, Pope Pius XII made clear that the Church does not regard the execution of criminals as a violation by the State of the universal right to life, arguing that:

When it is a question of the execution of a condemned man, the State does not dispose of the individual’s right to life. In this case it is reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned person of the enjoyment of life in expiation of his crime when, by his crime, he has already disposed himself of his right to live.

The Roman Catechism also called the Catechism of the Council of Trent which preceded the Current Catechism of the Catholic Church taught :

Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment- is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.

 

[Rau]

That’s why it’s such an issue that now the Pope is suddenly saying it’s wrong? Was the church and scripture not infallible back then and only now it is under the reign of Pope Francis?

To be fair, I believe the message of recent popes is that CP is unnecessary these days, and by virtue of the harm it does, would appear to be a terribly poor choice.

No pope has declared CP intrinsically evil - that would be a repudiation of doctrine.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

On what basis do you include the “death penalty” in a list alongside intrinsic evils such as abortion, euthanasia and contraception? Is it your assertion - contrary to the teaching of the Church, that the death penalty is intrinsically evil - meaning always and in every circumstance a wrong act?

I include the death penalty as being UNJUST. “If”? I am reading Pope Frances merciful teaching correctly here on capital punishment. It is wrong to exercise a death penalty because Muslim converts from Islam to another faith. It is not just to kill a person, in the name of one’s religious (Islam) cause such as a Caliphate. It is not just for any political religion (Islam, Jewish) to exercise a capital punishment for political or religious laws, for example, blasaphemy, or opposing a religious leader view.

We are experiencing the lost of innocent life today all in the name of (Allah) religion, or one’s political or moral view that may be opposed to the “norm”.

 

[Rau]

It is wrong to exercise a death penalty because Muslim converts from Islam to another faith. It is not just to kill a person, in the name of one’s religious (Islam) cause such as a Caliphate.

Nothing in Catholic doctrine ever deemed CP a just punishment in these circumstances. And I don’t believe the Pope was addressing circumstances such as these, for were he doing so, who would object?

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

In 1952, Pope Pius XII made clear that the Church does not regard the execution of criminals as a violation by the State of the universal right to life, arguing that:

I wonder if Pope Pius XII in 1952 included the Political Religion of Islam, as having the “Sate of the universal right to life” to exercise a capital punishment of Killing infidels in the name of Islam= Allah?

Do you believe the council of Trent included Islam, in their definition, when Islam as being the Civil authority, “to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by a legal and judicious exercise of which they (kill) punish the guilty (infidels, Muslim converts) and protect the innocent (Islam)”? (parenthesis mine)

I believe Pope Frances is exposing today’s unjust death penalties, (especially against the Christians in the East) without publicly naming names.

Because Islam is a political/religion that exercises both civil laws and religious laws, find’s itself exempt today from the Church’s moral teaching on the just death penalty. Because the Church gives ample authority to the civil authorities to exercise a just death penalty.

Islam today does not fall under the Church’s category of a civil authority possessing the power to execute a capital punishment. When Islam uses its religious views to exercise a civil death penalty.

Pope Frances is visiting this Capital Punishment taught in the Catechism as needing to develop further or deeper for our humanity today. When the current Capital Punishment teaching from the Church does not go far enough for today’s killing done in the name of religion (Islam).

I don’t believe Pope Frances wants to change the death penalty teaching of the Church. The Pope may want to develop further the death penalty teaching, to include such Political/Religions such as Islam, which practices its religion as a Political power, that possess the civil authority to kill infidels as being just. Just as the Catechism teaches.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

Nothing in Catholic doctrine ever deemed CP a just punishment in these circumstances.

Then you don’t know what the Church teaches on CP as being just.

The Roman Catechism also called the Catechism of the Council of Trent which preceded the Current Catechism of the Catholic Church taught :

Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment- is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence.

And I don’t believe the Pope was addressing circumstances such as these, for were he doing so, who would object?

That’s what I love about Pope Frances. He leaves such statements like these open for discussion. Which we are doing as the laity. Every Pope like Pope Frances addresses the issues of the present time.

Presently our Catechism on capital punishment does not go far enough. It needs to develop, not change the original teaching but enhance the teaching to address our day and time for all time.

 

[Rau]

Your post makes no sense and does not at all rebut what I said. The quote from the Roman Catechism describes the tradition teaching of the Church.

Modern day Popes have argued for less CP in advanced western countries for the reasons I gave earlier.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

Nothing in Catholic doctrine ever deemed CP a just punishment in these circumstances. And I don’t believe the Pope was addressing circumstances such as these, for were he doing so, who would object?

Correction, I did answer your question. The CC of the Church does not address or go far enough on CP, as “a just punishment in these circumstances”. That is why I believe Pope Frances is visiting the Church’s teaching on Capital punishment, that needs to develop further her present teaching to bring our present time to current teaching on CP.

PS, I am not refuting your post, I am offering a developing understanding of our present Pope from his Mercy teachings. Pope Frances, as far as I read, never refutes the current Church’s teaching on CP.

 

[HarryStotle]

I find it ironic that a “pro life” website is essentially arguing that the death penalty is a good thing. And that’s what it boils down to, don’t get it twisted.

To claim you are “pro life” yet support the death penalty is to entirely miss the point of being pro life. Pro life does not mean you simply support what you judge to be “innocent” life - it means supporting, upholding, and protecting all Life, PERIOD.

Life is a reflection of God, since God is Life.

God is the Source of All Life, the Sustainer of All Life, and both the Origin and Destination of all Human Life.

And I find it ironic that even though “God is the Source of All Life, the Sustainer of All Life”…

… EVERY SINGLE LIFE on earth – plant, animal, and human – DIES.

So apparently, not even God – the Creator of all life on earth – is as “pro-life” as you.

That would seem to be a head scratcher, no?

If being “pro-life” means “supporting, upholding, and protecting all Life, PERIOD,” then apparently God fails to be pro-life EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. PERIOD.

Are you campaigning on a “pro-life” platform to unseat God from his throne in eternity?

Or MIGHT you just simply be WRONG in your assessment?

 

[Rau]

Presently our Catechism on capital punishment does not go far enough.

In which direction does it no go far enough? What does it not ‘cover’ that needs to be addressed?

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

That’s why it’s such an issue that now the Pope is suddenly saying it’s wrong?

I may have missed this. When and where did Pope Frances state that the Church’s teaching on CP is wrong? When and where did Pope Frances ever state to remove all forms of CP?

Pope Frances being a Jesuit in possession of a Franciscan Saint name. May have his personal views over and against CP, same as all of his predecessors.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

In which direction does it no go far enough? What does it not ‘cover’ that needs to be addressed?

The CC accepts a Civil authority as possessing the power to exercise a capital punishment.

Islam for one example; Is a Civil authority possessing these powers to exercise a capital punishment.

The CC does not go far enough, to exclude a political/religion such as Islam, who has a Civil power to exercise a CP, just as the CC explains. When no civil law or moral law or CC teaching addresses this CP issue with Islam.

The problem today in Islam’s Civil authority and power to execute CP. Islam kills Christians/Jews because they are not Muslim. In which both the CC and the Koran authorizes Islam to justly execute CP as it deems necessary according to Islam’s Civil authority based on Islamic religious belief’s.

For clarification. The CC does not exclude any political Civil/religion to exercise CP today. Because the CC does not exclude Islam from CP. Islam a civil authority possesses the power to administer CP as Islam seems fit. Thus Islam can justly kill infidels today per Islam’s Civil authority.

Islam is just one example today. Korea is another example, who exercises a civil CP as the dictator’s wish.

 

[Trishie]

It is a dreadful thing when criminals commit heinous crimes that cause suffering to victims and devastation in families. It always will be a terrible thing to deal with destructive, and life-changing damage to loved ones or toanyone in the community. In the end, nothing makes up for the mental torment of knowing people suffered or suffer due to crime. Nothing can heal the loss of a life, because the person is gone forever fro our midst.
When I see the pain this question of capital punishment causes, I feel grateful that we don’t have to go through the agony and the dilemma in my country. My State abolished the death penalty in 1922, and other States followed, along with the Federal Government,.
I hope and pray things can be resolved elsewhere. I can understand why the Pope’s pronouncement causes difficulty and even bewilderment among supporters of capital punishment.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Amen

…