School Shootings: a new analysis

[The_Barbarian]

You are making some wild assumptions here.

No, I’m taking the recommendations of law enforcement professionals who have studied the issue. And I’m noting that in such situations, no one who has actually followed that policy has died. A pretty good indicator, no?

You are ignoring the fact that some experts now say the GUN FREE ZONE signs attract murders and have even attempted to refute the experts on this point.

So let’s test that idea. Show me the evidence for the number of mass killings that happened in “gun-free zones.” And then support your allegation that the mass killing sites you cited were posted “gun-free zones.”

Then we’ll know. When do you think we’ll see that evidence?

I still don’t understand why you refute that and yet are unwilling to post one of those signs on your home.

I own a gun. So it wouldn’t make much sense. And of course, they aren’t intended for residences or apartment complexes.

 

[melensdad]

No, I’m taking the recommendations of law enforcement professionals who have studied the issue. And I’m noting that in such situations, no one who has actually followed that policy has died. A pretty good indicator, no?

Clearly you are stuck in the OLD recommendations that have, per the 2 articles posted in this thread, have been changed. The new recommendations and tactics have evolved. Please review the 2 articles and the video.

Show me the evidence for the number of mass killings that happened in “gun-free zones.”

Again, refer the the 2 articles and the video. The experts stated these facts. Here is a news story claiming the media ignored the fact that Trolly Sq Mall was posted a GUN FREE ZONE, as was the mall in Omaha. Both had mass shootings, both were posted with signs reading GUN FREE ZONE. Clearly the criminals can not read? foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315563,00.html

Despite the lack of news coverage, people are beginning to notice what research has shown for years: Multiple-victim public shootings keep occurring in places where guns already are banned. Forty states have broad right-to-carry laws, but even within these states it is the “gun-free zones,” not other public places, where the attacks happen.

People know the list: Virginia Tech saw 32 murdered earlier this year; the Columbine High School shooting left 13 murdered in 1999; Luby’s Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas, had 23 who were fatally shot by a deranged man in 1991; and a McDonald’s in Southern California had 21 people shot dead by an unemployed security guard in 1984.

All these attacks — indeed, all attacks involving more than a small number of people being killed — happened in gun-free zones.​

When asked to put a ‘GUN FREE ZONE’ sign in on his front door this is the crux of the reply:

And of course, they aren’t intended for residences or apartment complexes.

Show me the evidence that these signs are not designed to be used everywhere?

Take a look at this, its humorous, but it seems to reinforce YOUR ideas
youtube.com/watch?v=C0vyxgJLJVA

 

[wabrams]

I have one son, a successful software project manager, who struggled with depression all his life. When it finally was found that he had a chemical imbalance that caused the depression, he was placed on one of those meds. He says it saved his life; he had struggled with suicidal thoughts for some time. Long as he’s on it, he’s fine. Without it, he’s seriously depressed.

Could be an issue. I just know that my son is still with us, because of those drugs. But you might have something there. However, I know of one teacher, about 45 years ago, in my school, who hit on one of my friends in a most blatant way. She was weird; probably would have been a candidate for Prozac today.

Since this is the kind of thing a suicidal kid might do in the first place, I wonder. Is there a place I can access this data on these kids? In general it’s tough to locate medical histories, even of criminals, due to privacy laws.

The problem might not be the drugs themselves, but people taking drugs they don’t need or drugs that cause the opposite reaction from what is inteneded.

 

[stanmaxkolbe]

I wouldn’t have thought anyone was dumb enough to think “gun-free zones” were meant for residences. Besides, you still won’t tell me if I’d have to get rid of my gun.

Do you actually know of anyone who thinks “gun-free zone” signs should be placed at residences? If so, please give us a checkable link.

Typical liberal response insult and attack someone personally and still don’t answer the question.:hypno:

 

[stanmaxkolbe]

Take a look at this, its humorous, but it seems to reinforce YOUR ideas
youtube.com/watch?v=C0vyxgJLJVA

Aw man I laughed so hard I spit out my pop on the monitor.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Barbarian regarding using “gun-free zone” signs at residences:
I wouldn’t have thought anyone was dumb enough to think “gun-free zones” were meant for residences. Besides, you still won’t tell me if I’d have to get rid of my gun.

Do you actually know of anyone who thinks “gun-free zone” signs should be placed at residences? If so, please give us a checkable link.

Typical liberal response insult and attack someone personally and still don’t answer the question.

I don’t expect him to answer. I expect he knows it’s a dumb idea. What I don’t know is why he asked the question.

Not sure why he won’t tell me if I have to give up my gun.

 

[The_Barbarian]

The problem might not be the drugs themselves, but people taking drugs they don’t need or drugs that cause the opposite reaction from what is inteneded.

I think you’re right about that.

 

[The_Barbarian]

It appears mellonsdad has located two shootings in posted gun-free zones (checking his references to be sure), and can’t find anything else.

So the earlier assertions about Columbine et al are “inoperative.”

If they lied to you about that, why would you trust them at all?

 

[melensdad]

Actually, to get back onto the REAL topic, what I posted is this:
WCPO is the ABC Affiliate in Cincinnati.

When Seconds Count: Stopping Active Killers

Reported by: Brendan Keefe
Email: Brendan.Keefe@wcpo.com
Last Update: 1:22 am

There have been so many school shootings over the last 40 years that researchers have been able to develop a profile of the typical mass murderer.
…
The other statistic that emerged from a study of active killers is that they almost exclusively seek out “gun free” zones for their attacks.
…
Many malls and workplaces also place signs at their entrances prohibiting firearms on the premises. Now tacticians believe the signs themselves may be an invitation to the active killers.
…
Also, the data show most active killers have no intention of surviving the event.
…
As soon as they’re confronted by any armed resistance, the shooters typically turn the gun on themselves.​

And then I also posted this:

Again, refer the the 2 articles and the video. The experts stated these facts. Here is a news story claiming the media ignored the fact that Trolly Sq Mall was posted a GUN FREE ZONE, as was the mall in Omaha. Both had mass shootings, both were posted with signs reading GUN FREE ZONE. Clearly the criminals can not read? foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315563,00.html

Despite the lack of news coverage, people are beginning to notice what research has shown for years: Multiple-victim public shootings keep occurring in places where guns already are banned. Forty states have broad right-to-carry laws, but even within these states it is the “gun-free zones,” not other public places, where the attacks happen.

People know the list: Virginia Tech saw 32 murdered earlier this year; the Columbine High School shooting left 13 murdered in 1999; Luby’s Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas, had 23 who were fatally shot by a deranged man in 1991; and a McDonald’s in Southern California had 21 people shot dead by an unemployed security guard in 1984.

All these attacks — indeed, all attacks involving more than a small number of people being killed — happened in gun-free zones.​

When asked to put a ‘GUN FREE ZONE’ sign in on his front door this is the crux of the reply:
Show me the evidence that these signs are not designed to be used everywhere?

Take a look at this, its humorous, but it seems to reinforce YOUR ideas
youtube.com/watch?v=C0vyxgJLJVA​

 

[wabrams]

Do you actually know of anyone who thinks “gun-free zone” signs should be placed at residences? If so, please give us a checkable link.

I think “gun free zone” signs should be placed on the lawns of those who are rabidly anti-gun and wish to restrict everyones right to them. Here is a LINK to where I said it so you can verify it.

 

[stanmaxkolbe]

I don’t expect him to answer. I expect he knows it’s a dumb idea. What I don’t know is why he asked the question.

Not sure why he won’t tell me if I have to give up my gun.

I can’t answer that question it’s a conservative secret.

You have to be a card caring member of the CCC Conservative Conspiracy Club for me to answer that question.

Members of the CCC don’t answer ridicules questions.

 

[JustinR]

Yep.

For example, in the last 16 years, homicides at schools dropped by one-third.
krusekronicle.typepad.com/kruse_kronicle/images/07violdeath.gif

**2005:
Violent crime against students in schools fell 50% from 1992 to 2002, according to a report from the Education and Justice Departments released in November. Crime outside schools, too, is at a 30-year low. **.

YES , school shootings are down some compared to the high in the early 1990s, BUT that is an UNREALISTIC comparison. If you are going to look at history you can’t narrow it to suit your purpose. Look at the statistics from the 1940s 1950s and 1960s, then they were very rare. Compare today to the those decades and they are WAY up now, also nowdays the number of victims per incident is also more than then.

And the general crime statistics of the last few decades are down, HOWEVER that is at the same time Conceal Carry is way up, the first states with the 'shall issue " had the most drop while surrounding states that did not issue permits had an increase in crime as criminals found easier targets. As the number of states and the number of people who carried went up, the crime went down. Read the book- More Guns, Less Crime.

As far as meds, it is easy to find the controversy of Big Pharma fighting having to put the “black box” warnings on them , they were required to do that because of the many people who had severe negative reactions - like killing people. Read the book Prozac to see the detailed statistics, deatailed studies, the detailed legal cases, the details of crime with spelling out what meds they were taking, the psych reports, etc.

 

[The_Barbarian]

YES , school shootings are down some compared to the high in the early 1990s,

They were higher in the 70s.

BUT that is an UNREALISTIC comparison. If you are going to look at history you can’t narrow it to suit your purpose. Look at the statistics from the 1940s 1950s and 1960s, then they were very rare. Compare today to the those decades and they are WAY up now, also nowdays the number of victims per incident is also more than then.

Sounds interesting. Show me the data.

 

[melensdad]

I think “gun free zone” signs should be placed on the lawns of those who are rabidly anti-gun and wish to restrict everyones right to them. Here is a LINK to where I said it so you can verify it.

Correct me sir, but is not the whole of the City of Chicago a “Gun Free Zone” and did not the same designation also apply to the city of Washington D.C. until very recently? Could we not simply extrapolate that both cities have effectively placed “GUN FREE ZONE” signs, in the figurative sense, in the yards and on the doors of the homes and apartments of all their citizens.

I’d have to say that if these cities are gun free, then they seem to back up the experts cited in the articles posted. The experiences of these citywide GUN FREE ZONES clearly indicates that they draw crime because the rates of crime in these areas is higher than in the communities that surround these same cities.

You suggest that GUN FREE ZONE signs should be placed in the yard of the rabid anti-gunners. Seems to me that Chicago’s mayor and D.C.'s mayor are both rabidly anti-gun. Seems they have burdened their cities with high violence, very possibly as a result of their ‘GUN FREE ZONE’ policies.

 

[wabrams]

Correct me sir, but is not the whole of the City of Chicago a “Gun Free Zone” and did not the same designation also apply to the city of Washington D.C. until very recently? Could we not simply extrapolate that both cities have effectively placed “GUN FREE ZONE” signs, in the figurative sense, in the yards and on the doors of the homes and apartments of all their citizens.

I’d have to say that if these cities are gun free, then they seem to back up the experts cited in the articles posted. The experiences of these citywide GUN FREE ZONES clearly indicates that they draw crime because the rates of crime in these areas is higher than in the communities that surround these same cities.

You suggest that GUN FREE ZONE signs should be placed in the yard of the rabid anti-gunners. Seems to me that Chicago’s mayor and D.C.'s mayor are both rabidly anti-gun. Seems they have burdened their cities with high violence, very possibly as a result of their ‘GUN FREE ZONE’ policies.

Agreed.

 

[melensdad]

Agreed.

In addition to the fact that both of those cities have near “GUN FREE ZONE” status, both also have the rare distinction of forbidding honest licensed citizens from gaining ‘concealed carry’ permits and using guns to protect themselves. So in additon to preventing the licensing to carry for protection both cities not only have/had bans on handguns, both also required long guns be disabled.

Yup. Seems that both cities are examples of the failure of the Gun Free Zone experiment.

 

[wabrams]

In addition to the fact that both of those cities have near “GUN FREE ZONE” status, both also have the rare distinction of forbidding honest licensed citizens from gaining ‘concealed carry’ permits and using guns to protect themselves. So in additon to preventing the licensing to carry for protection both cities not only have/had bans on handguns, both also required long guns be disabled.

Yup. Seems that both cities are examples of the failure of the Gun Free Zone experiment.

Isn’t Detroit also gun free?

 

[melensdad]

Isn’t Detroit also gun free?

I don’t believe so. There are several violent cities that are not gun free. But those cities typically are very blighted. Detroit and Gary seem to fit that general description. That, however, would not alter the Gun Free Zone issues.

And clearly my examples of using whole cities may be considered a bit to extreme by some to be valid, but I submit that the general theory, as presented in the articles I posted, seem to bear out that GUN FREE ZONES simply don’t work. That is the basic premise of the articles. Despite some attempts to parse the results, it does seem to be difficult to refute when looking at malls, schools, post offices, and work places.

 

[melensdad]

YES , school shootings are down some compared to the high in the early 1990s …

Justin, don’t limit the discussion to just school shootings. The articles clearly pointed out that these ‘mass’ shootings occur in all sorts of places. While I may have mis-titled the thread for school shootings, it really is a bigger problem that just at schools. The article also looks at malls, workplaces, etc.

And the general crime statistics of the last few decades are down, HOWEVER that is at the same time Conceal Carry is way up, the first states with the 'shall issue " had the most drop while surrounding states that did not issue permits had an increase in crime as criminals found easier targets. As the number of states and the number of people who carried went up, the crime went down. Read the book- More Guns, Less Crime.

The second article I posted in this thread seems to infer a similar conclusion. It more clearly states that the GUN FREE ZONES keep the honest and licensed armed people out of the areas leaving them as ‘defenseless victim zones’ or ‘victim killing zones’ instead of the more benign sounding but clearly more dangerous “gun free zones.”

I’ll have to get a copy of that book. Thanks!

 

[JustinR]

Melensdad you are so right. Everything you had said is true !!

before it was mentioned about the Trolley Square and Omaha mall shootings, I was in both places just prior to the shootings, I was in the Omaha mall one week prior and since I lived in SLC and often go to the Brazilian resturant in Trolley I was there the day before that one.
If you care to look at the details of each incident you can learn. In both incidences the gunman ignored the signs ( guess he could not read) , Both incidences 911 was called and people died in the minutes waiting for cops to show up. But in Trolley Square there was an armed guy eating in the resturant with his wife who engaged the gunman and saved people, he happened to be a off duty cop from another city, but still waiting for the cops to arrive would cost more lives. Others in the mall were armed and pulled their guns to defend themselves. Legally carring saved their lives. If this had occured in a different state then at least several more would be dead.

In Utah the 'gun free" zones are few (you can legally carry in schools), and in general the signs in malls are ignored since in Utah if you are in a “gun free zone” with a conceal carry and someone does find out, all they can do is ask you to leave, there is no penalty. Of couse if it is concealed then no one knows anyway. Compared that to Arkansas where carring in a gun free zone and someone finds out it means your permit and gun are taken on the spot and you are charged. In Omaha and all of Nebraska it is a felony to carry at all, so they did not have a chance to defend themselves.

And for those who want to talk statistics of violent crime rate, many studies have shown that people underreport crimes because they think nothing will be down about it, and police departments have been caught purposely downgrading categories of crime or ‘lose’ them to reduce the crime rate, several universities have reported lower false crime statisics on campus to not lose new students. Sure the DOJ statistics may show a slight decrease since the 1990s, but if you live in a city and see the news you can know it is up. The MS-13 is getting more violent with random crime. Just like the gov’t telling us for years that inflation was under 5%, those who pay attention to prices knew it was far more.