School Shootings

[Jon_S_1]

Yes, I have heard that argument before, but it doesn’t stand up to the facts that most First World nations do not have the same degree of shooting. I live in Canada, and just look at our statistics, we had - until this right wing conservative government - gun registration (which was a good idea but a badly managed program). In either case we do not even approach the 73 or so school shootings in the same time period that these shootings happened in the US.

More guns are not the solution.

Trickster

You also have a much much smaller population, fewer gangs, better mental healthcare, and since you enacted gun control in 78, your robberies have increased 40% and your attempted murder rate has stayed the same.

Also of those 74 school shootings, 15 were similar to Sandy Hook. The rest were gun incidents that happened to be at schools. Ex: being, suicide, accidental shooting, and gang incidents.

Regardless, .0002% of murders in the US are from a school shooting. It’s statistically insignificant.

 

[Jon_S_1]

These are states with rather liberal gun laws. I guess you could say that since some of them happened in locations that don’t allow guns, such as the workplace, that proves your point. I suspect most employers still won’t let workers bring guns or other weapons into the workplace unless they are forced to by law. Which will probably violate some other right.

Everyone of those locations are gun free or gun unlikely zones.

Show me the stats of murders at

Court houses
Government buildings (White House, Capitol )
Banks
Shooting ranges
Etc…

We protect those things with ARMED security because it’s valuable c

But we don’t find our kids so valuable I guess. No need to guard them.

 

[Seraphim73]

We protect those things with ARMED security because it’s valuable…But we don’t find our kids so valuable I guess. No need to guard them.

Ah and that’s really the point isn’t it? These politicians who grandstand on the issue of gun control, preying on an uneducated public, make me want to vomit. They could protect these children but they chose not to for political gain. This blood is on their hands too.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Ah and that’s really the point isn’t it? These politicians who grandstand on the issue of gun control, preying on an uneducated public, make me want to vomit. They could protect these children but they chose not to for political gain. This blood is on their hands too.

The second they put their money where their mouth is and get rid of all their armed guards and secret service and special protections, and send their kids to school without armed military, then I will jump on their control bandwagon (ok not really) but they need to put their money where their mouth is.

Feinstein carries a gun in her purse wherever she goes along with her security detail. Why are we not elite enough for doing the same.

Put an armed cop at every school with a fence around it that has a single point of entry (multiple exits but single entry)

See how many school shootings there are then.

 

[TK421]

You’re wasting your time trying to tell people here in the US that more guns are not the solution…people in other countries have mental health problems also…many are even more secular than the US with far fewer attending church…kids play the same violent video games…they all also have far fewer gun related deaths than the US…and that is per head of population…why…because they have far stricter gun control laws then here in the US…but you’re still wasting your time …no matter how many children are slaughtered in school shooting…the 2nd amendment trumps everything.

Violent crime in the United States has been on the decline since it peaked in the 1990s.

Europe has had less violent crime for the entirety of the existence of the US (just in terms of civilian crime; we’re excluding the 100+ million massacred from The Enlightenment and the World Wars)

Europe did not have modern gun controls laws in 1880.

You’re taking relatively recent innovations and then trying to connect an imaginary dot and say that Europe would be where the US is if it had the same gun policy.

Americans can be overzealous towards the 2nd amendment, but that is neither here nor there.

Europeanization is not the solution. You do not want to go where that continent is going right now.

 

[trickster]

You also have a much much smaller population, fewer gangs, better mental healthcare, and since you enacted gun control in 78, your robberies have increased 40% and your attempted murder rate has stayed the same.

Also of those 74 school shootings, 15 were similar to Sandy Hook. The rest were gun incidents that happened to be at schools. Ex: being, suicide, accidental shooting, and gang incidents.

Regardless, .0002% of murders in the US are from a school shooting. It’s statistically insignificant.

Jon, some very excellent points there, I did not take into account the difference in population in which case the statistics would tell another story…I stand corrected on that point… and back to the blackboard

Trickster

 

[LongingSoul]

You also have a much much smaller population, fewer gangs, better mental healthcare, and since you enacted gun control in 78, your robberies have increased 40% and your attempted murder rate has stayed the same.

Also of those 74 school shootings, 15 were similar to Sandy Hook. The rest were gun incidents that happened to be at schools. Ex: being, suicide, accidental shooting, and gang incidents.

Regardless, .0002% of murders in the US are from a school shooting. It’s statistically insignificant.

It’s astounding to watch the gun advocates minimise stats.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

Note: the US has a separate page to record the school gun crime figures.

The US experience with school based gun deaths warrants the same security measures as other important targets like government agencies. It’s a no brainer.

 

[Seraphim73]

It’s astounding to watch the gun advocates minimise stats.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

Note: the US has a separate page to record the school gun crime figures.

The US experience with school based gun deaths warrants the same security measures as other important targets like government agencies. It’s a no brainer.

I agree. Do the schools have the same level of protection the government agencies do? Not likely.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

1. So, disturbed kids are taking guns to school and killing teachers and classmates. We better make sure kids can’t get guns.
2. So, disturbed kids are taking guns to school and killing teachers and classmates. We better find out what’s making these kids want to kill, fix that, and then they won’t want to use guns to kill teachers and classmates.

See what I did there?

**Which statement makes more sense? **

Don’t bring up politics. Don’t refer to statistical data. Don’t nervously start to Google something…

Just read the two statements and be honest with yourself. We can do better. We’re smarter than this.

 

[Jon_S_1]

It’s astounding to watch the gun advocates minimise stats.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

Note: the US has a separate page to record the school gun crime figures.

The US experience with school based gun deaths warrants the same security measures as other important targets like government agencies. It’s a no brainer.

I am not minimizing stats! Nothing in your link indicated otherwise other than to show the tons of school shootings in Canada.

But you want to know how american schools are protected. They aren’t. Not at all unless your in the inner city (notably most of these shootings are in suburbs)

My child’s school has no fences, no police, and unlocked doors facing the street. Frankly it’s not even safe as first graders have been found wandering the town during school hours since the school is just so wide open.

This is because liberal gun control politicians “don’t want any guns in schools since it’s scary”. This means not even armed officers. Parents don’t want fencing because it makes their “school look ugly” or give the perception there is gang violence.

Now that is what needs fixing!!!

 

[TheDoors]

It’s not a gun problem, it’s a violence problem. You have school stabbings in the UK, a man going on a rampage with a HAMMER in China, and how do we react? We blast these madmen’s names, their life story, their rantings, all of it all over the news for months on end. And when it happens again, these names are once AGAIN brought up. Seems a sure-fire way to be noticed and remembered.

 

[LongingSoul]

1. So, disturbed kids are taking guns to school and killing teachers and classmates. We better make sure kids can’t get guns.
2. So, disturbed kids are taking guns to school and killing teachers and classmates. We better find out what’s making these kids want to kill, fix that, and then they won’t want to use guns to kill teachers and classmates.

1. So disturbed kids are taking drugs. Better make sure kids can’t get drugs.
2. So disturbed kids are taking drugs. Better find our what makes them want to take drugs and then they won’t take them.

When vulnerable people with big problems are causing carnage, its naive and foolish not to make these dangerous things as hard to access as possible. We aren’t talking about boo boos on the head. We are talking about deeply rooted and severe problems that are compounded by easy access.

 

[LongingSoul]

I am not minimizing stats! Nothing in your link indicated otherwise other than to show the tons of school shootings in Canada.

But you want to know how american schools are protected. They aren’t. Not at all unless your in the inner city (notably most of these shootings are in suburbs)

My child’s school has no fences, no police, and unlocked doors facing the street. Frankly it’s not even safe as first graders have been found wandering the town during school hours since the school is just so wide open.

This is because liberal gun control politicians “don’t want any guns in schools since it’s scary”. This means not even armed officers. Parents don’t want fencing because it makes their “school look ugly” or give the perception there is gang violence.

Now that is what needs fixing!!!

I don’t believe that. Why don’t the gun loving people who have the power to influence government, campaign hard to have that appropriate organised armed security in place? It’s nuts to say ‘just let every adult wander around the school with their gun on. That’s good enough security for the kids’. Where is the logic?

I don’t think gun loving people want that to happen because of lust for guns anywhere, anytime, anyplace. Posting armed guards would mean a gun free sanctuary and that equates to a little corner of the US having been taken back by King George of England in his pantaloons.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I don’t believe that. Why don’t the gun loving people who have the power to influence government, campaign hard to have that appropriate organised armed security in place? It’s nuts to say ‘just let every adult wander around the school with their gun on. That’s good enough security for the kids’. Where is the logic?

I don’t think gun loving people want that to happen because of lust for guns anywhere, anytime, anyplace. Posting armed guards would mean a gun free sanctuary and that equates to a little corner of the US having been taken back by King George of England in his pantaloons.

Believe it!

And that is exactly what gun advocates in the US were pushing. The head of the NRA have a speech outlining such security policies and offered to fund the training after Newtown.

The libs reject it saying “the answer is not more guns”

Even though the thesis was of the speech was. “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun or other weapon is a good guy with a gun”

The proof is that all those politicians and lawmakers have good guys with guns surrounding them.

Here is the video of the speech.

youtu.be/glwggRUAQBk

 

[LongingSoul]

Believe it!

And that is exactly what gun advocates in the US were pushing. The head of the NRA have a speech outlining such security policies and offered to fund the training after Newtown.

The libs reject it saying “the answer is not more guns”

Even though the thesis was of the speech was. “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun or other weapon is a good guy with a gun”

The proof is that all those politicians and lawmakers have good guys with guns surrounding them.

Here is the video of the speech.

youtu.be/glwggRUAQBk

I watched the video through and I actually agree with this strategy. He suggests that with the number of retired police, military and security trained personnel out there there is ample supply of highly trained people to step into this role.

I understand this not to be an acceptable *permanent *solution but it could be one justified by the domestic state of emergency that school massacres constitute. It should be a first step in gun control legislation. It is natural for people to want to rely on a committed and trained professional to meet their important basic needs and it is natural to need these professionals to have clear authority and accountability to a state body.

From what I’ve observed on CAF about gun advocates is that they don’t want this solution. Their focus is adamantly on arming everyone as an individual militia member and they have a distain for any state authorised defense measure. Considering this feeling and the smooth shift he made from advocating armed school protection to armed unrestricted or accountable individuals protecting themselves… I wondered whether this whole speech was an act of ‘gaslighting’ to whitewash the NRA after another school massacre.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I watched the video through and I actually agree with this strategy. He suggests that with the number of retired police, military and security trained personnel out there there is ample supply of highly trained people to step into this role.

I understand this not to be an acceptable *permanent *solution but it could be one justified by the domestic state of emergency that school massacres constitute. It should be a first step in gun control legislation. It is natural for people to want to rely on a committed and trained professional to meet their important basic needs and it is natural to need these professionals to have clear authority and accountability to a state body.

From what I’ve observed on CAF about gun advocates is that they don’t want this solution. Their focus is adamantly on arming everyone as an individual militia member and they have a distain for any state authorised defense measure. Considering this feeling and the smooth shift he made from advocating armed school protection to armed unrestricted or accountable individuals protecting themselves… I wondered whether this whole speech was an act of ‘gaslighting’ to whitewash the NRA after another school massacre.

Based on the vehement condemnation of this speech by the gun grabbers, and their subsequent inaction, I’d say it was in no way gas lighting.

I’m glad you watched it and learned more about the issue.

Here is something to consider too.

100% of police officers own guns, most of them multiple guns.
They take these guns home.

If guns are the problem then police officers and their families should have tremendously higher rates of suicide, domestic violence, murder, school shootings, etc…

Yet that’s not remotely close to true.

Why?

Because the issue is not the guns but the people who own them.

It really is about mental health care which is completely inadequate in the US

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

1. So disturbed kids are taking drugs. Better make sure kids can’t get drugs.
2. So disturbed kids are taking drugs. Better find our what makes them want to take drugs and then they won’t take them.

When vulnerable people with big problems are causing carnage, its naive and foolish not to make these dangerous things as hard to access as possible. We aren’t talking about boo boos on the head. We are talking about deeply rooted and severe problems that are compounded by easy access.

Access to what?

Schools, other kids, teachers…society???

I strongly agree, if that is what you mean. These children exhibiting anti-social and
anti-establishment behavior should NOT be allowed access to mainstream society.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Access to what?

Schools, other kids, teachers…society???

I strongly agree, if that is what you mean. These children exhibiting anti-social and
anti-establishment behavior should NOT be allowed access to mainstream society.

There is a valid point in here.

We used to institutionalize a lot more people. Now it is so stigmatized that the people that really need it don’t get even basic mental health care.

That coupled with a society that is godless and teaches people it’s all about me. About how I feel about what I get out of it.

When peope don’t get what they want they throw these deadly tantrums.

 

[TheDoors]

Access to what?

Schools, other kids, teachers…society???

I strongly agree, if that is what you mean. These children exhibiting anti-social and
anti-establishment behavior should NOT be allowed access to mainstream society.

Soooo… you want to lock up the punks, the goths, the rockers, the metal-heads, the greasers, the emo, the vegans, the pro-lifers, the polotically-active kids, the boy scouts, junior NRA members, the loners… who do you THINK this government is going to call "anti-establishment? This government which has added veterans and the knights of columbus to the terrorist watch list? But hey, as long as they aren’t like YOU and dress/act funny, it’s ok, right? I mean, it’s not like we’ve had a large amount of shootings by kids on the honour roll or anything. Oh wait.

CLEARLY the best idea is to take a group which already feels isolated and turn them into not only social, but now LEGAL lepers. Can’t have people around who think independantly, oh no. They might DISAGREE with you.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Soooo… you want to lock up the punks, the goths, the rockers, the metal-heads, the greasers, the emo, the vegans, the pro-lifers, the polotically-active kids, the boy scouts, junior NRA members, the loners… who do you THINK this government is going to call "anti-establishment? This government which has added veterans and the knights of columbus to the terrorist watch list? But hey, as long as they aren’t like YOU and dress/act funny, it’s ok, right? I mean, it’s not like we’ve had a large amount of shootings by kids on the honour roll or anything. Oh wait.

CLEARLY the best idea is to take a group which already feels isolated and turn them into not only social, but now LEGAL lepers. Can’t have people around who think independantly, oh no. They might DISAGREE with you.

I’m sorry, Doors. I should have used the “sarcastic font” so you would get my point.

The minute we tried to eliminate children exhibiting anti-social and anti-establishment behavior from society (which, you gotta admit, is a good idea) the ACLU would be all over the place protecting the rights of these kids.

Conversely, the “National Anti Gun Club” has no problem violating and infringing the rights of law abiding, decent American gun owners.

But, hey, I like your list…

Yeah! I would like to “lock up the punks, the goths, the rockers, the metal-heads, the greasers, the emo, the vegans, the pro-lifers, the politically-active kids, and the loners.”

I would leave out the Jr. NRA members and the Boy Scouts, since none of those have ever engaged in a school shooting.