School spending myth

[BK80734]

denverpost.com/opinion/ci_5982482

Pertinent quotes, esp. re: public v. parochial schools:

Public schools in this country currently spend more than twice as much money per student as private schools. Yet many parents are willing to dig deeply for the privilege of sending their children to private schools where far fewer resources are expended on them.

…

*In short, what private school parents are paying for is not better resources, or higher-paid teachers (in fact, teachers are paid less in private schools). Rather, what they are paying for is a safe learning environment for their children. *What our public schools need is not more money, but a re-ordering of priorities and the institution of the disciplinary measures used by private schools to provide a safe learning environment, slashing of the unnecessary and wasteful bureaucracy and return of authority to teachers.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I do not understand your title? Did you read the high paid teachers thread? Public schools spend roughly 1/3 of their money on teaching and 2/3 on administration and assets. A private school is probably around 80% on teaching so

public budget $1,000,000 = $370,000 on teaching
private budget_ $450,000 = $360,000 on teaching

Did I mention I support vouchers?

 

[BK80734]

I was given a warning by the admin. for not using the original title of the article (plus not having a link to the story), so that’s where it comes from. I don’t think the author would disagree with you at all, though, because the title is referring to the myth that throwing more tax money at the public schools will make them better.

As far as vouchers, I’m right there with you. However, a state senator I know says the approach should be tax credits for education rather than direct payments to parents of state or federal money (basically just a difference in semantics), so there are fewer strings attached to the money when the parents get it. He probably has a point there.

 

[DAWNCUROLE]

I both agree and disagree. There are things that are not seen or brought to light by this article. That have a real impact on costs in public schools. Let me start by saying that if it were possible both my children would be in Catholic schools now. I went to Catholic school. They offer an enviroment of learning, safety, and Catholic community that can not be caputred in CCD or a public secular setting. My children however, have multiple learning and emotional problems. My husband and I adopted them at ages of 9 and 11. They were both far behind in classes because they were moved around alot because of foster care. They have had to deal alot of emotional issues (abuse, neglect, adoption, etc). We tried 3 Catholic schools but they need small ( 5-10 children) classes. They need alot of emotional support and now are dealing with anger issues. Needless to say this is not possible in a Catholic school. I do have to say that all 3 schools tried to help us the best they could. The public schools have to provide these services for my children and I am sure that a larger share of the per student money goes to special ed students, discilpine problem students, and emotional and physically challenged than the average student. If private schools had to provide these services you would see a rise in the cost of education per student in the private sector.

The public schools do need restructuring but it needs to be restructured by the educators not the politicans. The educators the ones who actually know what is going on in the classes. The maze of administrators needs to be taken away so that the money can move into the class room and out of the offices and pockets of administrators.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Be careful when supporting vouchers. Remember, who takes the King’s shilling is the King’s man – Catholic schools might become addicted to public money and the political (and Politically Correct) control that goes with it.

I would rather see True Choice – the education budget is divided by the number of students, and the parents choose the school. They can choose any school, public, private, for-profit or non-profit, and the school gets 90% of the per-pupil share of the education budget for each student.

But I still would not advise Catholic schools to take public money.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The public schools do need restructuring but it needs to be restructured by the educators not the politicans. The educators the ones who actually know what is going on in the classes. The maze of administrators needs to be taken away so that the money can move into the class room and out of the offices and pockets of administrators.

The administrators are the educators. And they (and the unions) are the ones who made the schools the mess they are.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I suggest we get rid of the educators and bring back the teachers.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

…

As far as vouchers, I’m right there with you. However, a state senator I know says the approach should be tax credits for education rather than direct payments to parents of state or federal money (basically just a difference in semantics), so there are fewer strings attached to the money when the parents get it. He probably has a point there.

Be careful when supporting vouchers. Remember, who takes the King’s shilling is the King’s man – Catholic schools might become addicted to public money and the political (and Politically Correct) control that goes with it.

I would rather see True Choice – the education budget is divided by the number of students, and the parents choose the school. They can choose any school, public, private, for-profit or non-profit, and the school gets 90% of the per-pupil share of the education budget for each student.

But I still would not advise Catholic schools to take public money.

I can not get the math to work in these formats but I would love to see it. K-12 at private school should be a little over $65,000. Add another $60,000 for college so you have $125,000 per kid or $250k-$300k for a small Catholic family. A typically family income is $46,000 so it seems to me they can afford only one child at a time? Even though the family pays more in taxes, the taxes are mostly in social security, Medicare, and sales tax not income taxes. In essence you would have to drop their income tax to zero and refund the sales tax? That is zero for the government, so I can not get that math to work.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I both agree and disagree. There are things that are not seen or brought to light by this article. That have a real impact on costs in public schools. Let me start by saying that if it were possible both my children would be in Catholic schools now. I went to Catholic school. They offer an enviroment of learning, safety, and Catholic community that can not be caputred in CCD or a public secular setting. My children however, have multiple learning and emotional problems. My husband and I adopted them at ages of 9 and 11. They were both far behind in classes because they were moved around alot because of foster care. They have had to deal alot of emotional issues (abuse, neglect, adoption, etc). We tried 3 Catholic schools but they need small ( 5-10 children) classes. They need alot of emotional support and now are dealing with anger issues. Needless to say this is not possible in a Catholic school. I do have to say that all 3 schools tried to help us the best they could. The public schools have to provide these services for my children and I am sure that a larger share of the per student money goes to special ed students, discilpine problem students, and emotional and physically challenged than the average student. If private schools had to provide these services you would see a rise in the cost of education per student in the private sector.

The public schools do need restructuring but it needs to be restructured by the educators not the politicans. The educators the ones who actually know what is going on in the classes. The maze of administrators needs to be taken away so that the money can move into the class room and out of the offices and pockets of administrators.

Bliss you for helping these children. Private school certainly can provide these services, however it would be different. If you read the other thread it is not the teachers which are so expensive it is supporting inefficient management systems and assets. The public school system hires (and buys) from the private sector the service special need kids receive. The issue maybe how to finance special needs kid education, again I would like to see vouchers my guess is there would be special classes of vouchers for special needs children, these would require probably medical forms submitted from private M.D. the parents would probably pay for the medical evaluation which would be needed to qualify for the additional voucher. The children would then attend private specialized schools. It is important to realize this is not the issue between public and private, in the other thread we broke down some actual public school budgets (Dallas ISD) that break down does not indicate special education as a substantial factor in their budget.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I can not get the math to work in these formats but I would love to see it. K-12 at private school should be a little over $65,000. Add another $60,000 for college so you have $125,000 per kid or $250k-$300k for a small Catholic family. A typically family income is $46,000 so it seems to me they can afford only one child at a time? Even though the family pays more in taxes, the taxes are mostly in social security, Medicare, and sales tax not income taxes. In essence you would have to drop their income tax to zero and refund the sales tax? That is zero for the government, so I can not get that math to work.

Regardless of the math, the Church should not take government money. Our souls are worth more than all the money in the world.

But the commercial education and training industry, where I worked for many years, has about a 100% burden rate – that means for each dollar the professional makes, he keeps 50 cents and the rest goes for overhead, taxes, insurance, and so on.

At $5,000 a child, a 20-child classroom will generate $100,000 per year, and the professional (the teacher) should get half, or about $50,000 a year.

But since they’re **our **schools, we can run them as we please:

• Fund the schools through a special collection every month. Let all of us help pay for Catholic schools, not just the parents.
• Have the Bishops place special emphasis on this – tell us why the money is needed, and show us the good it does. In other words, have them exercise leadership.
• Establish trust funds with surplus money – just as private colleges do. Make it customary for graduates to give back. Encourage Catholics to mention Catholic schools in their wills.
• Start school every quarter – keep the classroom full 12 months out of the year, instead of only 9. That’s a 33% increase in efficiency.
• Use modern Computer Aided Instruction – my company did that for the Basic Skills Education Program, teaching soldiers what the public schools failed to teach.

In other words, we can get costs down, efficiency up, and raise more money than we do now.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

…

At $5,000 a child, a 20-child classroom will generate $100,000 per year, and the professional (the teacher) should get half, or about $50,000 a year.

The average Catholic couple can only pay this for one child

But since they’re **our **schools, we can run them as we please:

• Fund the schools through a special collection every month. Let all of us help pay for Catholic schools, not just the parents.

• Have the Bishops place special emphasis on this – tell us why the money is needed, and show us the good it does. In other words, have them exercise leadership.

• Establish trust funds with surplus money – just as private colleges do. Make it customary for graduates to give back. Encourage Catholics to mention Catholic schools in their wills.

• Start school every quarter – keep the classroom full 12 months out of the year, instead of only 9. That’s a 33% increase in efficiency.

• Use modern Computer Aided Instruction – my company did that for the Basic Skills Education Program, teaching soldiers what the public schools failed to teach.

In other words, we can get costs down, efficiency up, and raise more money than we do now.

We have tried all this in our parish and yet are school is near closing. Yet about $1,800,000 is sent to the local public school to educate the children in the Catholic school. If the voucher system transferred 75% leaving 25% to the local public school to allow a stable long term asset planing. Then our school and most private schools would be fine.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The average Catholic couple can only pay this for one child

Which is why the rest of us should chip in.

We have tried all this in our parish and yet are school is near closing. Yet about $1,800,000 is sent to the local public school to educate the children in the Catholic school. If the voucher system transferred 75% leaving 25% to the local public school to allow a stable long term asset planing. Then our school and most private schools would be fine.

You started school every quarter? You maximized CAI?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Which is why the rest of us should chip in.

The rest of us do chip in 25% of our church collection goes directly to the school. Another 15%+ to teach(educate others) and 10% to the diocese, that means only about 40% is used by the church & church office.

You started school every quarter? You maximized CAI?

Maximize is a relative term you may consider the answer as yes or no. I doubt the kindergarten class can function properly online. Whether we grade 3 or 4 times a year is not relevant. The hidden assumption is we shorten the education → thus less kids-> less teachers, and buildings. Believe me we have looked for answers the odds are the high school may close. The bottom line is a regular working family pays taxes for the public school whether they wish to or not. The same family can not pay all 3, 4, or 5 tuitions for their children even if grandpa helps. Remember grandpas 4 children who have 4 children mean 16 grand kids.

 

[KathleenElsie]

When the tuition for only three children in our local Catholic school was more then my job brought in, we made the final decision to homeschool. They closed our parish school due to the downward trend in enrollment and then wondered why many of us chose to homeschool. The $10,000 a year, taxes, transportation, uniforms, books and on and on it goes would have meant no stay at home mom for the younger children.

It now costs us around $1200 a year to educate three in Classical education and as more children are added it only goes up for the supplies such as paper, pencils etc.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The rest of us do chip in 25% of our church collection goes directly to the school. Another 15%+ to teach(educate others) and 10% to the diocese, that means only about 40% is used by the church & church office.

Are you talking about the parish, or the entire Diocese?

My proposal is all Catholics contribute – even those in parishes that currendly don’t have Catholic schools.

Maximize is a relative term you may consider the answer as yes or no. I doubt the kindergarten class can function properly online.

Which is neither here nor there – since we don’t expect small children to function online. We have teachers and aides to help them do that, as they help them in other matters.

I recommend investigating DODEA, the Department of Defense Education Activity, which runs public schools on military bases, worldwide. These are acknowledged to be the best American public schools (even “60 Minutes” did a piece on them and acknowledged that.) They have an impressive CAI system – so a child whose parents are stationed on a remote base can have the same range of subjects as children in larger schools, even if they cannot provide a flesh-and-blood teacher in all subjects.

Whether we grade 3 or 4 times a year is not relevant. The hidden assumption is we shorten the education → thus less kids-> less teachers, and buildings.

No, it’s more kids with the same buildings and teachers.

Believe me we have looked for answers the odds are the high school may close. The bottom line is a regular working family pays taxes for the public school whether they wish to or not. The same family can not pay all 3, 4, or 5 tuitions for their children even if grandpa helps. Remember grandpas 4 children who have 4 children mean 16 grand kids.

I agree with you that it is wrong to tax parents for services they do not use – and then expect them to pay for the same services out of their own pockets.

But for the Church to accept public funds is dangerous. There are other ways to make Catholic schools viable and affordable.

 

[vern_humphrey]

When the tuition for only three children in our local Catholic school was more then my job brought in, we made the final decision to homeschool. They closed our parish school due to the downward trend in enrollment and then wondered why many of us chose to homeschool. The $10,000 a year, taxes, transportation, uniforms, books and on and on it goes would have meant no stay at home mom for the younger children.

It now costs us around $1200 a year to educate three in Classical education and as more children are added it only goes up for the supplies such as paper, pencils etc.

And a few parents can band together and share the teaching load – and voila! A small Catholic school!

 

[KathleenElsie]

And a few parents can band together and share the teaching load – and voilà! A small Catholic school!

We share books, talents and time. We have a baseball team and play groups, sleep overs, Catholic Homeschool picnic and the list goes on. We never need to hire a babysitter there are usually lots of free young people to help out with this. Of course we need to make sure all those vans fit the available parking space. Teachers conference days LOL are coffee, koolaid, and cookies served with love.

 

[vern_humphrey]

We share books, talents and time. We have a baseball team and play groups, sleep overs, Catholic Homeschool picnic and the list goes on. We never need to hire a babysitter there are usually lots of free young people to help out with this. Of course we need to make sure all those vans fit the available parking space. Teachers conference days LOL are coffee, koolaid, and cookies served with love.

And you are showing a light to the rest of us. We can have Catholic schools by a combination of home schooling and distance learning. Computer Aided Instruction courses can be centrally-developed for use both in schools and at home. The same with teaching material.

We can spread Catholic schools far beyond the physical confines of the school buildings – to isolated communities and small parishes.

We only need the will and the leadership to do it.

 

[KathleenElsie]

And you are showing a light to the rest of us. We can have Catholic schools by a combination of home schooling and distance learning. Computer Aided Instruction courses can be centrally-developed for use both in schools and at home. The same with teaching material.

We can spread Catholic schools far beyond the physical confines of the school buildings – to isolated communities and small parishes.

We only need the will and the leadership to do it.

I wish and pray that all we needed was the will and leadership. But, there is something we need and are not getting in most Diocese, we need the Bishop, priests and other religious to give us the emotional support to undertake the responsibilities of teaching our young. Most Bishops are not supportive of homeschoolers.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I wish and pray that all we needed was the will and leadership. But, there is something we need and are not getting in most Diocese, we need the Bishop, priests and other religious to give us the emotional support to undertake the responsibilities of teaching our young. Most Bishops are not supportive of homeschoolers.

I’ve said it before, if leadership were shoes, the Catholic Bishops would be naked from the Adam’s apple down.