School vouchers win-win?

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manualman

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Would someone please explain to me why teachers unions oppose school vouchers for parents of catholic school students?

Besides general dislike of catholicism and fear of being shown-up by shoestring operations, why?

The arguments I have heard hold no water. They say such vouchers would erode funding for the public school system and reduce its effectiveness.

BALONEY!

What does the average public school spend per elementary student? $6-7,000? OK, so they MUST take the hard cases. The troubled kids. Special ed. How hard can it be to separate the accounting? Maybe they only spend $5,000 on a good kid with no problems.

If the above math is true, why would they oppose a voucher program of $4,000 per student??? They still get to pocket $1,000 for that kid and incur NO EXPENSES! How exactly does that “harm” public education in America?

It doesn’t. Nobody can honestly say it does. Why are there not more voices calling attention to this disgrace? Why are the teachers unions allowed to shelter themselves from real competition like this?

Why are parents denied a CHOICE in how their children are educated (using their own tax dollars)? Even when a system is proposed that benefits both parties financially?

It’s time catholics stopped allowing this abusive treatment by politicians and public school systems!
 
The unions are against it because it will take money away from the schools. The unions and teachers may be misguided and their argument may not hold water, but it’s still why they are opposed. You also hit on another reason - competition. Private schools turn out better students than do public schools. If people start realizing this on a wider scale, and vouchers become available to more people, more and more students will leave the public school, and thus the public schools will lose their effectiveness and their influence over our children.
 
I have two small children, 4 and 2 so I have a couple of thoughts about this topic.

Here is my concern about the voucher program. While it will take away money from the public school system, I fear that the quality of a Catholic (or private) education will be compromised by complying with Federal guidelines and political correctness overtake Catholic teaching. So I really have mixed feelings about vouchers in our Catholic schools.

However there is no easy solution to the situation.
 
School vouchers would take many interested parents out of the public school system. Yet the Catholic school system has no obligation to take in any child with any IEP. Therefore the teachers union disagrees with it for many reasons: money, children, the future of public school system.

Much of the Chicago public school system already battles this whole argurment with the magnet school program that gets some Federal funding. The children that qualify for the magnet programs go out of their boundaries and attend a better school. People resent it terribly.

If even a small portion of the children from the public schools leave to use vouchers, then the public school scores will go down even more. It will be devastating.

I would love to use vouchers, and I do pay for Catholic schools. However, I am a public school teacher and I don’t know what would happen. I care about our public schools too. I do think the competition would be good in the end. Yet some of our public schools would be hurt beyond repair. This is a tough question.
 
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MooCowSteph:
The unions are against it because it will take money away from the schools. The unions and teachers may be misguided and their argument may not hold water, but it’s still why they are opposed. You also hit on another reason - competition. Private schools turn out better students than do public schools. If people start realizing this on a wider scale, and vouchers become available to more people, more and more students will leave the public school, and thus the public schools will lose their effectiveness and their influence over our children.
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Vouchers can insulate the governement from the school as direct grants and such force compliance. Vouchers move the money where th parents want it.
 
Boils down to the Unions (NEA and others) not wanting this…but when you look at what the NEA does want for our kids that is scarier, IMHO!
 
Let’s try some sample math here.

Say the local public school system has 10,000 kids. The local catholic school has a capacity of 1,000, but only 500 go there since it is in the city and enrollment has been declining for years (which is typical).

The catholic school projects that they will need to close in 5 years if trends continue as they are now (also sadly typical). For discussion let’s say I was close on the money. The public school has funding of $7,000 per kid. The high acheiving kid with no behavioral problems only costs them $5,000 per kid. The catholic school has no facilities for special ed or behavioral problem kids, but only charges $4,000 a year for those they take.

So if my plan went into effect today and the catholic school suddenly went up to capacity, the public school would have 9,500 kids and the catholic school 1,000. The public school still gets ((9,500*$7,000)+(500*$1,000))/9,500 = $7,052.63 per student. The public school now has MORE MONEY per student than they did before the vouchers came out!

Now let’s look at what the situation will be in 5 years when the catholic school closes if today’s trends continue. My state, like most, has property tax caps. The school district funding rates can’t go up faster than home values. So now the public school has 10,500 students and still has the same $70,000,000 budget to spend. Now they have $6,667 per student to spend.

Now, somebody tell me again how vouchers take funding away from the public schools? Looks to me like they have MORE money per student in the public school system if we go to a smart voucher program.

And I do NOT see why giving parents a voucher to use at the school of their choice would give the government the right to meddle in the teaching of the faith at catholic schools. Plenty of people I knew who went to Steubenville for college had government student loans and grants. Does the constitution differentiate between college and grade school?
 
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manualman:
Let’s try some sample math here.

Say the local public school system has 10,000 kids. The local catholic school has a capacity of 1,000, but only 500 go there since it is in the city and enrollment has been declining for years (which is typical).

The catholic school projects that they will need to close in 5 years if trends continue as they are now (also sadly typical). For discussion let’s say I was close on the money. The public school has funding of $7,000 per kid. The high acheiving kid with no behavioral problems only costs them $5,000 per kid. The catholic school has no facilities for special ed or behavioral problem kids, but only charges $4,000 a year for those they take.

So if my plan went into effect today and the catholic school suddenly went up to capacity, the public school would have 9,500 kids and the catholic school 1,000. The public school still gets ((9,500*$7,000)+(500*$1,000))/9,500 = $7,052.63 per student. The public school now has MORE MONEY per student than they did before the vouchers came out!

Now let’s look at what the situation will be in 5 years when the catholic school closes if today’s trends continue. My state, like most, has property tax caps. The school district funding rates can’t go up faster than home values. So now the public school has 10,500 students and still has the same $70,000,000 budget to spend. Now they have $6,667 per student to spend.

Now, somebody tell me again how vouchers take funding away from the public schools? Looks to me like they have MORE money per student in the public school system if we go to a smart voucher program.

And I do NOT see why giving parents a voucher to use at the school of their choice would give the government the right to meddle in the teaching of the faith at catholic schools. Plenty of people I knew who went to Steubenville for college had government student loans and grants. Does the constitution differentiate between college and grade school?
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I agree. The issue is the unions and competition. The public schools are terrified of competetion that will require their constituency to compete, along with the problem of tenure hanging around their neck. The NEA also has an agenda and doing a very good job at secularizing Catholic and other children.

The loss of Catholic schools is a vistory for them and Catholics do not even see they are the frog in the boiling water.

It is time for Dioceses across the US to return to offering tuition free schools. There is much more than economics at issue. Souls are at stake and if the public system agenda wins it will be very hard to reverse.
 
I definately don’t support the NEA…

What does worry me, however, is that when it comes to vouchers, with government money comes government regulation.
 
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Jabronie:
I definately don’t support the NEA…

What does worry me, however, is that when it comes to vouchers, with government money comes government regulation.
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In a way I agree with you, but vouchers or tuition tax credits provide much insulation. However, if the feds past some hate speech craziness that affected the vouchers going to a Catholic schools that would be a problem. And guess what, you would probably be right, we would stop teaching homosexuality is wrong.
 
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manualman:
Would someone please explain to me why teachers unions oppose school vouchers for parents of catholic school students?
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Maily because they do not like the threat to their indoctrinization of children into the radical left. They are also anti-competetive and would like all private schools and homeschooling outlawed.

PF
 
I’m not sure…

There are several private schools, Catholic included, which provide a foundational education equivalent to the public schools in their geographic area. That could be equally good, equally mediocre, or equally bad (especially when you get those Catholic schools which promote contraception, women priests and gay marriage).

Of the kids I went to Catholic school with, I know of 5 who now, as parents, have their children attending Catholic school. Some aren’t particularly devout Catholic parents (in that they don’t attend mass regularly, they don’t observe holy days of obligation, they don’t participate in lenten/easter/christmas activities at the parish). So I’ve asked why, if they aren’t living the Catholic life for their children, they are insisting their children get a Catholic education, especially when the public schools in the area are just as good.

They tell me:

  1. *]I believe the Catholic foundation is critical to their development. They like that their children pray as part of their day.
    *]I want them to receive the sacraments.
    *]Children whose parents are sacrificing much to pay for their education come from homes with strong morals so this keeps the riff-raff away from my kids. I don’t have to worry about Goths, Wiccans, gang bangers and deadbeats influencing my kids.

    So let’s say the government comes up with a policy which states if you’re child does not attend a public school you get a credit on your year-end taxes for the amount of your taxes which went to the public school system…(is that a voucher? or something different?)

    Anyway, you guys are saying the CHOICE would mean more parents would send their kids to private schools.

    Well more parents surely would apply to privates schools for their kids, but since the schools are private, they control the admissions standards.

    a. not everyone who applies will get in - where’s the choice there???

    b. if there is a stipulation that these private schools cannot deny an applicant based on race, creed, gender, whatever…then won’t those private schools become public schools?

    I could see a lot of parents getting upset about Johnny and Suzy sitting next to the gang banger’s kid who’s there on a voucher. Look what is happening toward kids who live in homosexual homes.

    I could see a lot of parents getting upset their child is being denied admission to a private school of their choice when the campaigning for the legislation promised the new voucher system would mean everyone would have a choice, only to find the door shut on them.

    Doesn’t seem so win-win to me.
 
I am currently working on my Masters in Secondary Education and will soon be teaching. I live in Los Angeles where we have a huge number of children living in poverty. Generally, the schools in the pooer areas receive less funding than the schools in the more wealthy areas - this includes teacher’s salaries which means that the kids who have the greatest need get the least experienced teachers (again, this is generally). You might think that vouchers would be the answer to their problem. Not necessarily so. For one thing, the private schools in this area are very expensive - even with vouchers most of these families could not afford to send their kids to private school Most of the private schools are located in aresa away from the poorest students so in many cases the kids wouldn’t have a way to get there (no school buses and most of these kids parents don’t have a car). Kids who are not goog English speakers will have a more difficult time in a school where most of the students speak English as their first language. And these are just a few of the problems.

With public school a lot of the money gets sidetracked, but fuding is always a problem. As for teacher’s salaries, they are pathetic, especially for beginning teachers. My education is not free and I’ll have to pay for it somehow. If you want educated, competent teachers then you have to pay them a decent wage. We’re talking people with 6-8 years of college here. Aren’t your kids worth it? Catholic schools pay even less than public - I would love to work at a Catholic school but probably won’t be able to because of the low starting salary.

Sorry, that was a rant… 😦

But as a future teacher I think the education system in this country stinks and most people who make suggestions to fix it don’t really understandt the complexity of the problems.
 
A voucher would work the same as a college federal aid grant. The recipient of the grant chooses where he wants to use it. The college is not required to eliminate its religious affiliation/instruction. Why should grade schools?

The word “Saint” in front of a school name surely does NOT guarantee anything about its teachings, true. But a well run parish school with an abundance of applicant could easily grant admissions based on parish participation. Rank applicant like this, in order of lowest to highest priority:
  • Non-parishoners
  • registered parishoners with no record of participation or giving
  • parishoners who meet a minimum standard of parish participation (i.e. teach CCD, sing in choir, work in RCIA, etc)
  • parishoners like the above who demonstrate consistant mass attendance via regular envelope receipts (not ranked by dollar amounts).
AGAIN, I note that the public schools would be left with more dollars per student to allow smaller class sizes and more programs to compensate for the greater concentration of problem kids.
 
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CinciMom:
Here is my concern about the voucher program. While it will take away money from the public school system, I fear that the quality of a Catholic (or private) education will be compromised by complying with Federal guidelines and political correctness overtake Catholic teaching.
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How true, thank you.

:amen:
  • Kathie :bowdown:
 
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manualman:
But a well run parish school with an abundance of applicant could easily grant admissions based on parish participation. Rank applicant like this, in order of lowest to highest priority:
  • Non-parishoners
  • registered parishoners with no record of participation or giving
  • parishoners who meet a minimum standard of parish participation (i.e. teach CCD, sing in choir, work in RCIA, etc)
  • parishoners like the above who demonstrate consistant mass attendance via regular envelope receipts (not ranked by dollar amounts).
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And as you can see with your own ‘ranking’ system there are a lot of public school students who would like to use vouchers to send their kids to your school which would be turned away because they’ll have limited seats (in order to maintain ratios) and those seats will be given in a preferential manner.

Therefore, this argument about a right to choose a ‘good’ education gets mangled…

The choice ends up really benefiting the elite but not for those who need it, would benefit most from it, or who want it the most.

The choice pays for the ones who would have paid out of their own pockets anyway, lessening their financial burden, though not eliminating it.

The choice keeps out those who couldn’t afford it before - not only through selective admissions - but because the voucher would not cover the entire cost of the tuition, as an earlier poster noted, so even if they did get admitted the total cost would be prohibitive.

If the voucher system ever gets voted in, I seriously doubt there will be a wave of public schools students leaving the public system…I just don’t see the elite private institutions admitting the bulk of public school students who’d want to attend their schools so they’ll end up staying in the public system.
 
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koda:
I am currently working on my Masters in Secondary Education and will soon be teaching. I live in Los Angeles where we have a huge number of children living in poverty. Generally, the schools in the pooer areas receive less funding than the schools in the more wealthy areas - this includes teacher’s salaries which means that the kids who have the greatest need get the least experienced teachers (again, this is generally). You might think that vouchers would be the answer to their problem. Not necessarily so. For one thing, the private schools in this area are very expensive - even with vouchers most of these families could not afford to send their kids to private school Most of the private schools are located in aresa away from the poorest students so in many cases the kids wouldn’t have a way to get there (no school buses and most of these kids parents don’t have a car). Kids who are not goog English speakers will have a more difficult time in a school where most of the students speak English as their first language. And these are just a few of the problems.

With public school a lot of the money gets sidetracked, but fuding is always a problem. As for teacher’s salaries, they are pathetic, especially for beginning teachers. My education is not free and I’ll have to pay for it somehow. If you want educated, competent teachers then you have to pay them a decent wage. We’re talking people with 6-8 years of college here. Aren’t your kids worth it? Catholic schools pay even less than public - I would love to work at a Catholic school but probably won’t be able to because of the low starting salary.

Sorry, that was a rant… 😦

But as a future teacher I think the education system in this country stinks and most people who make suggestions to fix it don’t really understandt the complexity of the problems.
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I think these are all very good points. In my experience I’ve found that most people who support vouchers are already in a position to be able to afford private schools for their kids and they have private schools near their homes. In the end the losers in the voucher system are unfortunately kids in poorer neighborhoods. That doesn’t seem fair to me- and I’m one of those white suburban kids who went to public and private schools and is now realizing most poor kids in America never had the opportunities I did… I think implementing a voucher system only tips the scales even more against poor inner-city families.
 
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YinYangMom:
The choice ends up really benefiting the elite but not for those who need it, would benefit most from it, or who want it the most.
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Places where vouchers systems have been put into effect demonstrate otherwise.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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mlchance:
Places where vouchers systems have been put into effect demonstrate otherwise.

– Mark L. Chance.
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I believe they experimented in Milwaukee with this. Does anyone know how it turned out?
 
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