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cara1
Guest
St. John V. may well have had dyslexia or ADD, more probably the former than the latter, considering his abilities in the confessional. Of course, there was no recognition or treatment of dyslexia back then.
In the ‘old days’ before public schooling it is true that many lay brothers and lay sisters couldn’t read. The ‘lay’ category has disappeared w/ Vat II, but brothers may not be required to have more than a hs education. I suspect that they are required to have additional work experience. This doesn’t not imply that brothers aren’t perfectly smart and able. They are, and are often nurses and teachers on the college level.
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JReducation
Guest
Lay Brothers have not disappeared. It is a real vocation. There are Jesuit, Redemptorist, Passionist, Holy Cross, Alexian,Christian, De la Salle, Carthusian, Benedictine and several other kinds of lay brothers. The degree of education required is going to depend on the work of the community.
What disappeared was the “lay brother” among monks and friars. That was never supposed to happen. They were all brothers, but there were clerics and non-clerics. At the end of the 18th century early 19th century, the monks and friars began to copy the Clerks Regular and separate the ordained and the non ordained. Suddenly you had Franciscan lay brothers, Carmelite lay brother, Dominican lay brothers and so forth among the friars.
The laity never realized the effect, because these distinctions freed up the ordained to be more present in parishes. The lay people thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. They didn’t know that these religious orders had derailed.
What is gone is the lay brother in the among mendicants. However, there are many friars who are not priests. All brothers are required to have at least a college degree or higher. The exception is if a person is older and has work experience. That is on the job training. The other exception is if the person has some kind of learning disaiblity, but can learn a trade. But you must have more than a High School diploma. Today, we have many non-clerical brothers and coadjutor brothers who are theologians, philosophers, canon lawyers, retreat masters, spiritual directors, parish administrators, religious superiors, seminary professors. In other words, they do other things that are not teaching or nursin. They do work that was once only allowed to priests.
Remember, this was not the tradition of the Church. This was something that morphed less than 200 years ago. It came about because the bishops needed priests and the religious communities tried to help by supplying them. The lay people, as they grew more educated and realized that there were abuses inside the religious community never expressed a cocern.
I remember a very funny experience that I had. Many years ago I was assigned to a house as its superior. I’m not a priest. The house was attached to a parish. Obviously there was a pastor and another friar priest. I had told the pastor that he had to shedule confessions earlier, because they were causing the two friar priests to miss Vespers. If I played too much with the Saturday evening schedule, I still could not squeeze Vespers, supper and recreation between the confessions and the Sat evening mass. In other words, Saturday was a very tight schedule. Whichever way you moved the community schedule it would interfere with something in the parish.
The pastor and I compromised. Vespers was at 4:15 and supper was at 5:00, evening mass was at 7:00 and community recreation was at 8:30. The pastor agreed that the best thing for them to do was to hear confessions from 3 - 4 and at 4 they would shoot out of the confessional and return to the house.
I took a beating over that one, because why was a non-ordained brother playing with their confession. I was not. I simply asked the pastor to move the time, which he did. Instead of 4:00 to 5:00 he set it from 3:00 to 4:00.
It is one thing if a man comes in late once in a while, because there is one more person in line, why not hear their confession. It is quite another if he is always absent from community functions.
This is just one more example of why most communities require higher education for everyone. If your vocation is to live the life of that community and engage in its ministry or if you’re going to be superior over priests, you had better be prepared for the task.
Let us not assume that because someone can’t get a higher edcuation that he has a vocation to the consecrated life. That is not true. Sometimes, that’s the sign that he does not have a vocation, because Christ will not call you where you cannot go.
Christ would never call me to be an Alexian Brother. I don’t like medical sciences and I never had a brain for chemistry. That rules out becoming a nurse, medical doctors or medical technician. Therefore, I don’t have a vocation to be an Alexia, even though I love their life and work.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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ATeutonicKnight
Guest
The OP’s teachers, aye? What teachers? I’m homeschooled. Just whom do you take me for, an uneducated public schooled kid?
But, just to clarify, it’s not that I don’t know proper grammar. It’s simply common to say “who” and not “whom” so I said “who” off of reflex. Just as it was reflex to say “Wherefore art thou?” and not “Where are you?” Just a mere six hundred years ago.
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ATeutonicKnight
Guest
This was extremely education. Thank you for this. But, not to go back to this again of course, the Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word (aka: EWTN Friars) don’t require a college degree and their mission is specifically preaching. They’re basically Dominicans but Franciscans by name and color.In my own community, I’m not a priest. However, I’m the only one who has a doctorate in theology. It was decided that I would go to school and come back to train priests. Later, it was decided that I would be the superior. Later, it was decided that I would run an entire department for a diocese. None of this would have been possible without an education. It’s as much about equality as it is about meeting the needs of the Church.
I hope that helps.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
But more into the topic, I had not realized there was a problem with Religious orders between the 1800’s through the 1960’s. It is rather interesting. But I can definitely understand why they would want to balance things out. Thank you for being the first person on here for saying “When a high education is not required there’s problems” and then actually explaining what you mean. I’m not sure if you’re not a gift from God, sent to relieve me of my mental struggles. You were extremely helpful. That’s where that doctorate comes in I suppose?
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ATeutonicKnight
Guest
By the way, if you see something, feel free to go on open warfare, as I’m doing at this moment.
What is slready?
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JReducation
Guest
You’re very welcome.
I’m not sure who told you that, but they do require that friars have post-high school education. Those who want a theology degree must all go to Mt. St. Mary’s University in Emitsburg, MD for their M.Div. Others get degrees in Social Communication, Business Administration or they learn a trade that they can use in the community’s ministry.
The Franciscan Friars of the Eternal Word are a very unique association. They were founded by a Capuchin Friar and Mother Angelica to do Communnication Ministry, retreats, spiritual direction and perpetual adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. They are going to require the education necessary for that particular work.
What makes them unique is that they are not part of the larger Franciscan family. They are a public association of clerics. They are not a congregation or a religious order. However, they are religious of Diocesan Right. Maybe someday they will apply to be a congregation or an order. They were founded to be an association of priests who live by the Franciscan Rule, with some amending to the rule. Only the priests can hold office and only the priests can vote in Chapters.
In their case, this was of their choosing. It was not imposed on them by assimilation, as was the case with the rest of the Franciscan family. Men who enter their community and want to be lay friars know this going in.
However, even though the priests run the community, they do not use the lay friars as servants, as was the case with other mendicants between 1800 and the late 1960s. Nor do they have separate chapels, eating areas and recreation areas. They are truly one brotherhood. The only thing difference is their government. If a man has the desire and skills to get an advanced degree in theology, they will not push him to be ordained. Nor do they present the vocation of the lay friar as an alternative for those who are not smart enough to become priests. Those days are over among the Mendicants. We’re slowly getting back to the roots.
This was a very big problem that many people, especially the laity and the secular clergy did not appreciate. When you get so far from the original design of the founder, you end up with a different religious community. It may have the same name and wear the same habit, but the question is, would the founder recognize it, if he came back? If that answer is, “No,” then you have gone too far and you need to recover your roots before going forward. You’re not doing the Church any favors, no matter how many parishes you staff and how many schools you run. The Holy Spirit blessed the Church with a particular charism. If that charism is sacrificed for the sake of staffing parishes and running parrochial schools, the laity is being served, but the Church is sacrificing something to do that. The grace does not come from the work, it comes from the way of life lived by the religious.
You need not be a religious to be a priest in a parish, nor to be a teacher in a Catholic school. A secular man can become a parish priest or a Catholic school teacher and be very good at it and very holy, as were Vincent de Paul and John Vianney. Both were secular. You are a Dominican, Augustinian, Franciscan, Carmelite, etc, because Christ called you to live a particular way of life and you bring with you the spirituality and the way of life that is traditional for that family. Through the way you live the Gospel, the faithful are blessed, even if you never do anything for them. Whatever grace is given to one member of the Body is shared by all.
Nah!Thank you for being the first person on here for saying “When a high education is not required there’s problems” and then actually explaining what you mean. I’m not sure if you’re not a gift from God, sent to relieve me of my mental struggles. You were extremely helpful. That’s where that doctorate comes in I suppose?
I just know my history of religious life. 
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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ATeutonicKnight
Guest
Once again, thank you for the response. I’d give a proper response myself, but I’m not sure where I’d begin. You have many points and many ways of demonstrating them so it is nearly impossible for me to answer each one of them. But thank you for your help anyway. You have done a great many things for me.You’re very welcome.
I’m not sure who told you that, but they do require that friars have post-high school education. Those who want a theology degree must all go to Mt. St. Mary’s University in Emitsburg, MD for their M.Div. Others get degrees in Social Communication, Business Administration or they learn a trade that they can use in the community’s ministry.
Who told me this was (Now) Father Patrick Mary, their Vocations Director. I contacted him directly and asked him about it. He said that it is preferred to at least have a associates degree, but if it will be too hard on my family a simple GED will be satisfactory.
The Franciscan Friars of the Eternal Word are a very unique association. They were founded by a Capuchin Friar and Mother Angelica to do Communnication Ministry, retreats, spiritual direction and perpetual adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. They are going to require the education necessary for that particular work.
What makes them unique is that they are not part of the larger Franciscan family. They are a public association of clerics. They are not a congregation or a religious order. However, they are religious of Diocesan Right. Maybe someday they will apply to be a congregation or an order. They were founded to be an association of priests who live by the Franciscan Rule, with some amending to the rule. Only the priests can hold office and only the priests can vote in Chapters.
In their case, this was of their choosing. It was not imposed on them by assimilation, as was the case with the rest of the Franciscan family. Men who enter their community and want to be lay friars know this going in.
However, even though the priests run the community, they do not use the lay friars as servants, as was the case with other mendicants between 1800 and the late 1960s. Nor do they have separate chapels, eating areas and recreation areas. They are truly one brotherhood. The only thing difference is their government. If a man has the desire and skills to get an advanced degree in theology, they will not push him to be ordained. Nor do they present the vocation of the lay friar as an alternative for those who are not smart enough to become priests. Those days are over among the Mendicants. We’re slowly getting back to the roots.
This was a very big problem that many people, especially the laity and the secular clergy did not appreciate. When you get so far from the original design of the founder, you end up with a different religious community. It may have the same name and wear the same habit, but the question is, would the founder recognize it, if he came back? If that answer is, “No,” then you have gone too far and you need to recover your roots before going forward. You’re not doing the Church any favors, no matter how many parishes you staff and how many schools you run. The Holy Spirit blessed the Church with a particular charism. If that charism is sacrificed for the sake of staffing parishes and running parrochial schools, the laity is being served, but the Church is sacrificing something to do that. The grace does not come from the work, it comes from the way of life lived by the religious.
You need not be a religious to be a priest in a parish, nor to be a teacher in a Catholic school. A secular man can become a parish priest or a Catholic school teacher and be very good at it and very holy, as were Vincent de Paul and John Vianney. Both were secular. You are a Dominican, Augustinian, Franciscan, Carmelite, etc, because Christ called you to live a particular way of life and you bring with you the spirituality and the way of life that is traditional for that family. Through the way you live the Gospel, the faithful are blessed, even if you never do anything for them. Whatever grace is given to one member of the Body is shared by all.
Nah!
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Dominus Vobiscum.
J
JReducation
Guest
Brother Ronald
I thought this article would help people see why the mendicants had to go back to educating everyone. Look at this beautiful work of love.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I thought this article would help people see why the mendicants had to go back to educating everyone. Look at this beautiful work of love.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
C
Catholic90
Guest
So you do not have a clear understanding of the use of who and whom, correct? Since you are homeschooled, you do indeed have a teacher. Someone is your teacher. I guess I am assuming you do have someone guiding you. That person would be your teacher.The OP’s teachers, aye? What teachers? I’m homeschooled. Just whom do you take me for, an uneducated public schooled kid?
But, just to clarify, it’s not that I don’t know proper grammar. It’s simply common to say “who” and not “whom” so I said “who” off of reflex. Just as it was reflex to say “Wherefore art thou?” and not “Where are you?” Just a mere six hundred years ago.
Who is always used as a subject, while whom is always used as the object.
Who is calling me? I called the person who worked at the store.
For whom is the phone message? The boy threw the ball at the person to whom he was calling.
dummies.com/how-to/content/choosing-to-use-who-and-whom.html
Education is never wasted.
M
Mrmawker
Guest
Lol ouch. I think that would be classified as a burn. (That link is hilarious just by looking at it.)So you do not have a clear understanding of the use of who and whom, correct? Since you are homeschooled, you do indeed have a teacher. Someone is your teacher. I guess I am assuming you do have someone guiding you. That person would be your teacher.
Who is always used as a subject, while whom is always used as the object.
Who is calling me? I called the person who worked at the store.
For whom is the phone message? The boy threw the ball at the person to whom he was calling.
dummies.com/how-to/content/choosing-to-use-who-and-whom.html
Education is never wasted.
J
JReducation
Guest
I don’t find that funny.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
C
Catholic90
Guest
It is not meant to be funny. It is a lesson in basic grammar regarding the correct usage of WHO and WHOM, words which the OP consistently used incorrectly in this thread. It grates on some of our ears! This is basic elementary grammar usage. I included a link on basic grammar if he did not believe my examples.I don’t find that funny.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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runningdude
Guest
:banghead:
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Catholic90
Guest
If you keep banging your head against the bricks, it will give you a headache, and if done for even longer periods of time, it will cause a concussion. Chill out.
Whom are you trying to hurt? Who keeps banging their head?
R
Rachel_Malloy
Guest
This thread is now closed.
God bless
God bless
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