Science’s dead end

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edwest2 said:
That is complete nonsense. The V-2 was a massive project which took years. The V-1 required a thousand modifications before success. The Me-163 rocket plane was used successfully.

The Northrop flying wing was a complete success. It failed because of politics. The B-2 bomber design was viewed by Northrop shortly before he died.

God bless,
Ed
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The V-2 did not start out from scratch as a massive weapons system program.

It started in little incremental experiments, basically basement laboratories by eccentric people working alone.

Actually, the V-2 was based on the work of an American eccentric working alone, Robert Goddard. He used petty cash and some minor grants from private philanthropic individuals. The Americans basically laughed at him. But the Germans experimented using small amounts of money until von Braun and others were able to come up with the concept that made the idea work with smaller rockets from their amateur rocket club.

It was only then that Hitler funded the V-2. It was arguably the most expensive weapons system of WW2. Probably a waste of money. Built by slave laborers who probably sabotaged it in small ways. Didn’t do much damage. Scared the cr*p out of the Brits because there was no counter to it, except that it had limited range and to reduce the number of potential launch points.

The Germans were good at using launch and scoot tactics. And they could transport it by train [which is why they used those skinny fins … to enable it to fit through railroad tunnels.] If the war had gone on for another year or two, the Germans might have been able to put a nuke in it.

They were working on longer range versions that could reach the U.S.

The Japanese were working on a nuke in both the Army Tokyo lab and the Navy lab near Wonson. The Tokyo lab was burned out in a B-29 firebomb raid. However, the Soviets seized the Wonson lab immediately after the war. There is some dispute as to whether the Japanese actually fired one off immediately before the war. It would have been “interesting” for history if the Japanese had installed one on a submarine and detonated it under the U.S. invasion fleet. They had some very large submarines at the end.

The V-1 was a cheap weapon that worked well. The pulse jet engine had almost no moving parts. The Germans were deceived as to the success of the V-1 and were tricked into changing the timing of the engine cut out and as a result they overshot or undershot the aiming points. The Brits spent a lot of effort shooting them down with souped up piston engined fighters and their first jet fighters to chase them down. It took a determined and expensive defense team.
 
buffalo said:
Only 25% of the V!'s hit their target.
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On the other hand, almost none of the bombs dropped by the Americans and Brits hit their target, which is why we had to use thousand plane raids. German defenses were so successful that there were times we had to stop our raids until the airplane factories could produce more planes; we just ran out of planes from time to time.

The German defenses were so successful that the Brits could only bomb at night.
 
edwest2 said:
That is complete nonsense. The V-2 was a massive project which took years. The V-1 required a thousand modifications before success. The Me-163 rocket plane was used successfully.

The Northrop flying wing was a complete success. It failed because of politics. The B-2 bomber design was viewed by Northrop shortly before he died.

God bless,
Ed
Click to expand...
Question: who is Edwards AFB named after?

Maybe if Northrop had done some smaller scale experiments, maybe the size of a DC-3 or so, he would have been more successful.

Maybe if the YB-49 didn’t fail so spectacularly and so publicly, the flying wing would have been more successful. Maybe if they had computerized flybywire back then the flying wing would have been more successful. By the way, how many other flying wing designs have been successful besides the B-2?

The advocates concede that it had some “stability problems”. [Ya think?]

century-of-flight.net/Aviation%20history/evolution%20of%20technology/Northrop.htm

Here is a book review from Amazon:

Visionary designer Jack Northrop built a series of experimental “flying wing” aircraft both before and during WWII. One of the most radical designs of the post-war era, the propeller-driven YB-35 bomber’s all-wing design minimized drag and promised maximum payload capacity and terrific endurance. The YB-49, a turbojet powered variant built on the YB-35 airframe, forever altered aviation history and inspired the design of the B-2 Spirit stealth bomber. Unfortunately, the aircraft was just a few decades ahead of it’s time. When one of the prototype aircraft was put into a stall over Muroc AFB, the plane flipped end over end and crashed, killing the crew. One of those killed was Glenn Edwards, and in his memory Muroc was renamed Edwards Air Force Base.
 
Monte_RCMS said:
The V-2 did not start out from scratch as a massive weapons system program.

It started in little incremental experiments, basically basement laboratories by eccentric people working alone.

Actually, the V-2 was based on the work of an American eccentric working alone, Robert Goddard. He used petty cash and some minor grants from private philanthropic individuals. The Americans basically laughed at him. But the Germans experimented using small amounts of money until von Braun and others were able to come up with the concept that made the idea work with smaller rockets from their amateur rocket club.

It was only then that Hitler funded the V-2. It was arguably the most expensive weapons system of WW2. Probably a waste of money. Built by slave laborers who probably sabotaged it in small ways. Didn’t do much damage. Scared the cr*p out of the Brits because there was no counter to it, except that it had limited range and to reduce the number of potential launch points.

The Germans were good at using launch and scoot tactics. And they could transport it by train [which is why they used those skinny fins … to enable it to fit through railroad tunnels.] If the war had gone on for another year or two, the Germans might have been able to put a nuke in it.

They were working on longer range versions that could reach the U.S.

The Japanese were working on a nuke in both the Army Tokyo lab and the Navy lab near Wonson. The Tokyo lab was burned out in a B-29 firebomb raid. However, the Soviets seized the Wonson lab immediately after the war. There is some dispute as to whether the Japanese actually fired one off immediately before the war [ended[/COLOR]]. It would have been “interesting” for history if the Japanese had installed one on a submarine and detonated it under the U.S. invasion fleet. They had some very large submarines at the end.

The V-1 was a cheap weapon that worked well. The pulse jet engine had almost no moving parts. The Germans were deceived as to the success of the V-1 and were tricked into changing the timing of the engine cut out and as a result they overshot or undershot the aiming points. The Brits spent a lot of effort shooting them down with souped up piston engined fighters and their first jet fighters to chase them down. It took a determined and expensive defense team.

Correction in ended ]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_163 Fast but it probably killed more German pilots than American pilots. Burned hydrazine and alcohol.

This one is interesting. A rocked made of wood. Killed one German pilot and no American pilots, though.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachem_Ba_349_Natter
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Monte_RCMS said:
The Japanese were working on a nuke in both the Army Tokyo lab and the Navy lab near Wonson. The Tokyo lab was burned out in a B-29 firebomb raid. However, the Soviets seized the Wonson lab immediately after the war. There is some dispute as to whether the Japanese actually fired one off immediately before the war. It would have been “interesting” for history if the Japanese had installed one on a submarine and detonated it under the U.S. invasion fleet. They had some very large submarines at the end.
Click to expand...
That’s interesting. Is there a good source that documents the history of the Japanese attempt to develop nuclear weapons? I’d like to read up on that.
 
buffalo said:
Only 25% of the V!'s hit their target.
Click to expand...
The advantage was no pilot. The British could not shoot down a V-2. In fact, the sound of the missile approaching was heard only after it had struck. And once again, no pilot.

God bless,
Ed
 
Monte_RCMS said:
The V-2 did not start out from scratch as a massive weapons system program.

It started in little incremental experiments, basically basement laboratories by eccentric people working alone.

Actually, the V-2 was based on the work of an American eccentric working alone, Robert Goddard. He used petty cash and some minor grants from private philanthropic individuals. The Americans basically laughed at him. But the Germans experimented using small amounts of money until von Braun and others were able to come up with the concept that made the idea work with smaller rockets from their amateur rocket club.

It was only then that Hitler funded the V-2. It was arguably the most expensive weapons system of WW2. Probably a waste of money. Built by slave laborers who probably sabotaged it in small ways. Didn’t do much damage. Scared the cr*p out of the Brits because there was no counter to it, except that it had limited range and to reduce the number of potential launch points.

The Germans were good at using launch and scoot tactics. And they could transport it by train [which is why they used those skinny fins … to enable it to fit through railroad tunnels.] If the war had gone on for another year or two, the Germans might have been able to put a nuke in it.

They were working on longer range versions that could reach the U.S.

The Japanese were working on a nuke in both the Army Tokyo lab and the Navy lab near Wonson. The Tokyo lab was burned out in a B-29 firebomb raid. However, the Soviets seized the Wonson lab immediately after the war. There is some dispute as to whether the Japanese actually fired one off immediately before the war. It would have been “interesting” for history if the Japanese had installed one on a submarine and detonated it under the U.S. invasion fleet. They had some very large submarines at the end.

The V-1 was a cheap weapon that worked well. The pulse jet engine had almost no moving parts. The Germans were deceived as to the success of the V-1 and were tricked into changing the timing of the engine cut out and as a result they overshot or undershot the aiming points. The Brits spent a lot of effort shooting them down with souped up piston engined fighters and their first jet fighters to chase them down. It took a determined and expensive defense team.
Click to expand...
Your history is highly distorted. Rocket experimenters in the US and Germany shared data until the project was declared secret. Eventually, the SS was put in charge. Goddard did very little actual work The breakthrough occurred when a German scientist realized that the fuel could also be used to cool the combustion chamber which was prone to burn through unprotected.

The Germans were not deceived about the V-1. Early versions trailed a radio antenna that gave German controllers an accurate measurement of how far the missile actually traveled. There was a mechanical counter in the nose that measured out the distance as a tiny propeller in the nose turned in the air. At a preprogrammed distance, fuel was cut off to the engine, the flaps were set in the dive position and it fell out of the sky.

God bless,
Ed
 
Monte_RCMS said:
Question: who is Edwards AFB named after?

Maybe if Northrop had done some smaller scale experiments, maybe the size of a DC-3 or so, he would have been more successful.

Maybe if the YB-49 didn’t fail so spectacularly and so publicly, the flying wing would have been more successful. Maybe if they had computerized flybywire back then the flying wing would have been more successful. By the way, how many other flying wing designs have been successful besides the B-2?

The advocates concede that it had some “stability problems”. [Ya think?]

century-of-flight.net/Aviation%20history/evolution%20of%20technology/Northrop.htm

Here is a book review from Amazon:

Visionary designer Jack Northrop built a series of experimental “flying wing” aircraft both before and during WWII. One of the most radical designs of the post-war era, the propeller-driven YB-35 bomber’s all-wing design minimized drag and promised maximum payload capacity and terrific endurance. The YB-49, a turbojet powered variant built on the YB-35 airframe, forever altered aviation history and inspired the design of the B-2 Spirit stealth bomber. Unfortunately, the aircraft was just a few decades ahead of it’s time. When one of the prototype aircraft was put into a stall over Muroc AFB, the plane flipped end over end and crashed, killing the crew. One of those killed was Glenn Edwards, and in his memory Muroc was renamed Edwards Air Force Base.
Click to expand...
More distorted history. Jack Northrop was a genius. “The YB-49 was not seen by radar operators until the plane was almost overhead.”

In collaboration with Honeywell, Jack Northrop created a device he called “Little Herbert” to assist with directional stability. The test aircraft had been sabotaged.

General McNarey visited Jack Northrop and handed him a contract for 30 RB-49 flying wing bombers. In 1948, Secretary of the Air Force, Stuart Symington, met with Jack Northrop and insisted he merge his company with Consolidated Vultee. When Northrop refused, the existing YB-49s were cut up and hauled away.

Source: Jack Northrop and the Flying Wing by Ted Coleman (Mr. Coleman worked at Northrop.)

God bless,
Ed
 
Sonic said:
That’s interesting. Is there a good source that documents the history of the Japanese attempt to develop nuclear weapons? I’d like to read up on that.
Click to expand...
There are no good sources.

Just a lot of speculation.

Tantalizing bits and pieces.

Everyone associated is dead, and most documents were destroyed either by bombings or to cover up. Korea was pretty far off the beaten track as far as interest by us was concerned. A U.S. B-29 perhaps on a recon mission was shot down by the Russians near the Wonson site. But then, they shot down a LOT of our recon airplanes. There is at least one book on the subject.

The Japanese who worked on the project probably felt threatened or were threatened into silence.

If you consider the players: Soviet Union, USA, Japan, North Korea. No wonder everyone wants to keep their heads down.

Almost everything related to nuclear stuff is still off limits even WW2 stuff. If you buy all the books about the B-36 and the B-45 airplanes, you will learn that even the airplane designers and operations people could not get dimension information so that when the bombs were delivered to the ops people, they couldn’t fit them into the planes. Not to mention electrical and bomb lug info, etc. Big mess. Bureaucracy. To this day, no one talks about their experiences. They take what they know to their graves.

By the way, the flying wing airplane bomb bays were too small. Another cancellation reason. Apart from when the plane stalled, it tumbled out of control.

Anyway, go here; buy the DVD. And then start checking out what you can find. There used to be a few things on line, but they were taken down a while back.

shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69230

Good luck.
 
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