Science, faith clash in class

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The great majority of science teachers accept and teach evolutionary theory, but in a national survey this year, one-third of teachers said that they have faced pressure to marginalize the subject, chiefly from parents and students, and that they often do so to avoid conflicts.

In five states, nearly one in five teachers do not accept the scientific validity of evolutionary theory. In Texas, Louisiana and Minnesota, more than one in five teachers say they accept the scientific validity of creationism – rejecting common ancestry of living things and accepting the involvement of a supernatural force in the development of life on Earth.
Wow, that is pretty creepy. I’m not sure if it makes me glad I’m not a science teacher (to avoid the pressures) or if it makes me wish I was a science teacher (to make sure kids get a balanced education).

I don’t understand why some people think there is a conflict between evolution and religion.
 
Guar Fan:
I don’t understand why some people think there is a conflict between evolution and religion.
Because in the minds of the folks in influential organizations such as the National Academy of Sciences, whose members are 90% materialists (and, therefore, atheists), there is a conflict. Speaking against the reigning orthodoxy of materialism is a heresy against the dominant religion of scientism, that school of thought that “relegates religious, theological, ethical and aesthetic knowledge to the realm of mere fanasty” (to quote John Paul II).

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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davidford:
Which “religion”?
Well, I guess Christianity. This is a Christian forum and the pressure to oppose the teaching of evolution seems to be coming from some Christians.
Meaning of “evolution”?
oof… that’s a tough question for a layperson such as myself. I guess I think of evolution as the differentiation of species from a common ancestor. But apparently that is large-scale evolution and it is also helpful to consider small scale evolution: the changes in gene frequency in a population from one generation to the next.
 
I live in Kansas, the internationally renowned epicenter for this pointless argument.

A few years ago, the last time I ran and won a position as precinct committeeperson, sponsored by the KRA – the “conservative” faction of the Republican party here, I got a taste of a politically charged person on this issue. She was actually bringing me free yard signs for my campaign, and she was very anti-evolution. The things she was saying were beyond belief, but reflect the “thinking” of the creationism crowd – so I’m very reluctant to place the blame only on the anti-creationists. (Note: I use “anti-” for both terms, intentionally – that’s what they are is embodied hatred.)

I told her the my religion believes that scientific inquiries are worth pursuing, and sees that science and religion all seek truth but with different methods, approaches, and assumptions. OMG, she came unglued, evidently thinking I was a Mooney or something I guess – how could a good conservative Republican – much less an ostensible Christian – do anything by hate evolution theory?

These people are crazy here. They said it was I, but now I know better. 😉

Alan
 
Guar Fan:
I don’t understand why some people think there is a conflict between evolution and religion.
There isn’t and I don’t believe too many think this. There is, however, a conflict between prevailing darwinian evolutionary thinkers and theology. The tendency among dominate thinkers regarding evolutionary theory (and subsequently text book creators and teachers of the subject) is to believe, assume, and make poblic theological conclusions that are contrary to Christianity AND to demand belief in aspects of evolutionary theory as factual that have a basis in presupposition but not in fact.

It is not surprising that parents are upset about this conflict as they want their children to get a fair and balanced education and not one that is geared towards a specific prevaling modernist philosophy. In other words, they want their children to have the freedom to seek truth/facts wherever the science may take them.
 
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mlchance:
Because in the minds of the folks in influential organizations such as the National Academy of Sciences, whose members are 90% materialists (and, therefore, atheists), there is a conflict. Speaking against the reigning orthodoxy of materialism is a heresy against the dominant religion of scientism, that school of thought that “relegates religious, theological, ethical and aesthetic knowledge to the realm of mere fanasty” (to quote John Paul II).

– Mark L. Chance.
Well said. (I think someone has been reading the lastest article on the topic by Behe in First Things - a very fine thing to do!)
 
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AlanFromWichita:
I live in Kansas, the internationally renowned epicenter for this pointless argument.

A few years ago, the last time I ran and won a position as precinct committeeperson, sponsored by the KRA – the “conservative” faction of the Republican party here, I got a taste of a politically charged person on this issue. She was actually bringing me free yard signs for my campaign, and she was very anti-evolution. The things she was saying were beyond belief, but reflect the “thinking” of the creationism crowd – so I’m very reluctant to place the blame only on the anti-creationists. (Note: I use “anti-” for both terms, intentionally – that’s what they are is embodied hatred.)

I told her the my religion believes that scientific inquiries are worth pursuing, and sees that science and religion all seek truth but with different methods, approaches, and assumptions. OMG, she came unglued, evidently thinking I was a Mooney or something I guess – how could a good conservative Republican – much less an ostensible Christian – do anything by hate evolution theory?

These people are crazy here. They said it was I, but now I know better. 😉

Alan
You may have confused the poor woman as you are me.

What is it that makes you thing that the religous promotion of freedom of seeking the truth in science necessitates a love of evolutionary theory?
 
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Brad:
Well said. (I think someone has been reading the lastest article on the topic by Behe in First Things - a very fine thing to do!)
First Things is very nearly the only periodical worth reading.

😃

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Guar Fan:
I don’t understand why some people think there is a conflict between evolution and religion.
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Brad:
There isn’t and I don’t believe too many think this. There is, however, a conflict between prevailing darwinian evolutionary thinkers and theology.
The conflict between Darwinism and Christianity is this: Darwinism claims that evolution works by natural selection of random changes; Christianity holds that man was specifically created by God.

Having said that, the debate is really about what “random” and “created” mean. The Catholic Church has no problem with evolution being the means by which God created man; so long as evolution is a process directed to that end. If Darwinism claims randomness merely means there is chance involved as to when and where a particular event occurs (like throwing snake eyes with a pair of dice), then there is no fundamental conflict between Darwinism and Christianity. If, however, they mean randomness to be total and that man’s existence is wholly accidental then this is a direct, fundamental conflict with Christianity.

Unfortunately the conflict is invariably portrayed as being between wacky creationists on one side and rational science on the other. Evolution does not require total randomness (nor, in fact, does it require Darwinism) but it is often taught as if that were the case. Even if they cannot properly articulate their objection to “totally random” Darwinism, Christians who object to what is being taught have rightly identified a fundamental attack on their faith.

Ender
 
Evolution does more than just assert ‘randomness,’ it also asserts millions of years of death and suffering predating man, and Christianity asserts that death is a result of sin that was not part of God’s plan in a ‘very good’ creation, which was entirely the purpose for sending Christ to die for us in the first place in order to free us from sin and therefore death. It is not really so much to do with the existence of God as the creator, but much to do with the Fall of man, and this specifically undermines Christianity.

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 5:12-21)

Why is there death and suffering?

Creation: ‘Where’s the proof?’

Did God really take 6 days?

The early Church defended Creation Science
 
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mlchance:
Because in the minds of the folks in influential organizations such as the National Academy of Sciences, whose members are 90% materialists (and, therefore, atheists), there is a conflict.
Can you provide your definition of materialism please? Your paragraph perplexes me, and I suspect I’m simply using a different definition.
 
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Brad:
You may have confused the poor woman as you are me.

What is it that makes you thing that the religous promotion of freedom of seeking the truth in science necessitates a love of evolutionary theory?
She was not interested in freedom. She had an agenda and she was relentless in apply it. She was out to drive any mention of evolution out of the schools, because her religion took precedence. That’s not about freedom; that’s about religion suppression.

This woman spewed vitriole for anybody who dared suggest that evolution theory had any merit whatsoever. It scared me that this person had so much influence over who runs things.

Alan
 
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Digitonomy:
Can you provide your definition of materialism please? Your paragraph perplexes me, and I suspect I’m simply using a different definition.
Materialism is the philosophical view that everything that exists is material or physical, that there are no such things as spiritual entities or realities. Philosophical materialism is necessarily atheistic.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
She was not interested in freedom. She had an agenda and she was relentless in apply it. She was out to drive any mention of evolution out of the schools, because her religion took precedence. That’s not about freedom; that’s about religion suppression.

This woman spewed vitriole for anybody who dared suggest that evolution theory had any merit whatsoever. It scared me that this person had so much influence over who runs things.

Alan
Ok. But what you are describing is not the typical “creationist” way of going about things and it most certainly is not the “intelligent design” way of going about things either.

This is fairly isolated. Maybe such are all in Kansas. 🙂
 
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Brad:
Ok. But what you are describing is not the typical “creationist” way of going about things and it most certainly is not the “intelligent design” way of going about things either.

This is fairly isolated. Maybe such are all in Kansas. 🙂
Perhaps among the rank and file that is true. Even here, those who have an opinion mostly don’t have a strong one. Recently a young woman sent a really great letter to the editor asking adults to quit being this way because most people aren’t so fanatic.

The fanatics, though, are the ones who get officially into politics and even though the “masses” who aren’t so involved may vote, it is these people who exercise a great deal of control over who even gets on the ballot, and who get officially endorsed by what groups. This, in turn, shapes political outcomes by maybe as much as the outcome of the popular vote.

Alan
 
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