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**Eugene IV: **Sicut Dudum, January 13, 1435
On January 13, 1435, Eugene IV issued from Florence the bull Sicut Duhum. Sent to Bishop Ferdinand, located at Rubicon on the island of Lanzarote, this bull condemned the enslavement of the black natives of the newly colonized Canary Islands off the coast of Africa. The Pope states that after being converted to the faith or promised baptism, many of the inhabitants were taken from their home and enslaved:
They have deprived the natives of their property or turned it to their own use, and have subjected some of the inhabitants of said islands to perpetual slavery (subdiderunt perpetuae servituti), sold then to other persons and committed other various illicit and evil deeds against them . . . Therefore We … exhort, through the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus Christ shed for their sins, one and all, temporal princes, lords, captains, armed men, barons, soldiers, nobles, communities and all others of every kind among the Christian faithful of whatever state, grade or condition, that they themselves desist from the aforementioned deeds, cause those subject to them to desist from them, and restrain them rigorously. And no less do We order and command all and each of the faithful of each sex that, within the space of fifteen days of the publication of these letters in the place where they live, that they restore to their pristine liberty all and each person of either sex who were once residents of said Canary Islands … who have been made subject to slavery (servituri subicere). These people are to be totally and perpetually free and are to be let go without the exaction or reception of any money. [4]
The date of this Bull, 1435, is very significant. Nearly sixty years before the Europeans were to find the New World, we already have the papal condemnation of slavery as soon as this crime was discovered in one of the first of the Portuguese geographical discoveries. Eugene IV is clear in his intentions both to condemn the enslavement of the residents of the Canary Islands, and to demand correction of the injustice within fifteen days. Those who do not restore the enslaved to their liberty in that time incur the sentence of excommunication ipso facto.
Code:
        With ***Sicut Dudum***, Eugene was clearly intending to condemn             the enslavement of the people of the Canaries and, in no uncertain terms, to inform the faithful that what was             being condemned was what we would classify as gravely wrong. Thus, the unjust slavery that had begun in the newly             found territories was condemned, condemned as soon as it was discovered, and condemned in the strongest of terms.             **[5]**
         **Paul III: *Sublimis Deus***,             June 2, 1537
         The pontifical decree known as ***The Sublime God*** has indeed had an exalted role in the cause of social justice in the New World. Recently, even the Peruvian             liberation theologian Gustavo Gutierrez noted this fact: "The bull of Pope Paul III, ***Sublimis             Deus***, is regarded as the most important papal pronouncement on the human condition             of the Indians," **[6] **It is moreover addressed             to all of the Christian faithful in the world, and not to a particular bishop in one area, thereby not limiting             its significance, but universalizing it.
        
        ****
 
Sublimis Deus was intended to be issued as the central pedagogical work against slavery. Two other bulls would be published to implement the teaching of Sublimis, one to impose penalties on those who fail to abide by the teaching against slavery, and a second to specify the sacramental consequences of the teaching that the Indians are true men.
Code:
        The first central teaching of this beautiful work is the  universality of the call to receive the Faith and salvation:              And since mankind, according to the  witness of Sacred Scripture, was created for eternal life                  and happiness and since no one is able to attain this eternal life and  happiness except through faith in our Lord                 Jesus  Christ, it is necessary to confess that man is of such a nature and  condition that he is capable to receive                 faith in Christ  and that every one who possesses human nature is apt for receiving such  faith . . . Therefore the                 Truth Himself Who can neither  deceive nor be deceived, when He destined the preachers of the faith to  the office                 of preaching, is known to have said: "Go,  make disciples of all nations." "All," he said, without                  any exception since all are capable of the discipline of the faith. **[7]**             

        The teaching of Sublimis continues:
         Seeing this and envying  it, the enemy of the human race, who always opposes all good men so that                  the race may perish, has thought up a way, unheard of  before now, by which he might impede the saving word of God                  from being preached to the nations. He has stirred up some of his  allies who, desiring to satisfy their own avarice,                 are  presuming to assert far and wide that the Indians of the West and the  South who have come to our notice in                 these times be  reduced to our service like brute animals, under the pretext that they  are lacking the Catholic                 Faith. And they reduce them to  slavery (Et eos in servitutem redigunt), treating them with afflictions  they would                 scarcely use with brute animals. **[8]**
 
Against this background, we report that it is claimed that in 1454 Pope Nicholas V gave permission to Alfonso V of Portugal to enslave Saracens, and other “enemies of Christ.”
First, we have yet to see any documentation for this claim. Even if it be so, it as not a doctrinal teaching, but a practical action. Such an action could indeed imply a teaching in the mind of the one who acted, but it did not express any teaching. So we need to recall what was said above about divine Brinkmanship. Volume III, of Warren Carroll’s church history chronicles so many serious abuses of Popes in the middle ages. And we all know that Alexander VI had illegitimate children, and even officiated at marriage for them and even appointed an illegitimate son, Caesar, as a Cardinal! None of these abuses amounts to a teaching, but only to a very regrettable action.
Further we note that the alleged document allows slavery for Saracens. We need to remember also what was said above, that slavery is a bit less a penalty than life in a prison. And it may be earned by grave sin. Now the Saracens had been murdering all sorts of persons. Their religion was literally spread by the sword. Their sacred book, the Koran, says (cited from Bernard Palmer, Understanding the Islamic Explosion, Horizon House, 1980, pp. 36-37): “When ye encounter unbelievers, strike off their heads until ye have made a great slaughter among them, and bind them in bonds. . . .” They also believed that to fight in such a “Holy War” ensures immediate salvation, going to a sex paradise. Islamic people held Spain and Portugal for centuries, and got control of the area at first precisely by killing the “infidels”.
So since—if indeed the claim is true—Pope Nicholas V granted such an approval, it is evident he must have thought something substantially changed the case. For there was the much earlier prohibition of slavery by Pope John VIII in 873, in which he called it a grave sin. And Pope Paul III not long after 1454 (in 1537) ordered under automatic excommunication that slavery stop.

We should probably start a new thread on slavery.
 
Liu, representing science, presents us with the history of an illiterate sociopath named Pizarro gleaned from a tourist website for Machu Picchu. Buffalo, representing religion, presents us with a contrary history from a series of papal bulls that exactly describe what Church policy was at the time. Hmmm…point goes to religion!
 
You guys don’t understand so I will wake u up…time to smell the coffee

this is the fruit of your labour…youtube.com/watch?v=Us4Qg8Afpf0&feature=related

its what you have produced with chasing after ego, its your baby…

see post of mine on page 40…

if change is required , change is required in approach… the world is going backwards thanks to people like you guys…in the thirties, a time of our grandparents or whatever, times were much tougher and expression relieved in appreciation was as follows…why…? because the era was not congested with your baloney know it all individualism as ignorantly expressed in above link…that is your baby…it is the way of your ego related future because you do not understand unity…

here is an idea in the right direction, unity. The philisophical viewpoint must appreciate the
joy in simplicity vrs grief-complexity…you, as greylorn would say…(sorry don rickles, like the phrase…no need for the speech dis-associating
NITWITS…

This is unity in expression and a consequence of a society struggleing and reaching for meaning…not like the pheony example set by the comfy today…your all to blame with your non-sense …and I know this because you all ignored my brilliant post

This is an idea of unity , A direction which was on target and without the insecure dumb ego seen in present day society…which direction do U all want? backwards or forward?

youtube.com/watch?v=W0Qxqcd1KRM&feature=related

for an encore…youtube.com/watch?v=zSwPRNXhQtk&NR=1

you guys are prehistoric …less then sub 1800…we are witnessing a bad time and dealing with it like bazurks…thankyou for your realization in the One…as decibed in post , page 40…

I’m going to have a splendid weekend, hope the same for my fellow future Gods…good luck
 
Liu, representing science, presents us with the history of an illiterate sociopath named Pizarro gleaned from a tourist website for Machu Picchu. Buffalo, representing religion, presents us with a contrary history from a series of papal bulls that exactly describe what Church policy was at the time. Hmmm…point goes to religion!
Nice try, Moontown_rabbit. I just quoted from that site but I get my infos from A) my family coming from the Andes and B) having lived there for 8 years. Obviously you’re biased towards anything I say. Are you trying to tell me that the Church has never exploited anyone in History and has not participated in the exploitation of Latin America? Get real:rolleyes:

Btw, I don’t represent science. I just believe in the evidence science offers which religion fails to provide. To believe that we all descended from Adam and Eve is beyond ridiculous to me, so yeah, I rather believe the true story of human evolution.
 
That’s an amazing catalog in the first paragraph of your quote …
And it almost made me blurt out the famous E. E. Cummings line:

“Listen: there’s a hell of a good universe next door; let’s go”
 
Obviously you’re biased towards anything I say. Are you trying to tell me that the Church has never exploited anyone in History and has not participated in the exploitation of Latin America? Get real.
I’m not biased against everything you say, I just don’t comment when I agree with you! When it comes to Latin America, I agree that it was exploited by Western powers as represented by maniacs like Pizarro, but Pizarro was not the Church. An over-simplified history of Europe moving to the Americas is
  1. Explorers come in first and explore and create some settlements
  2. Missionaries arrive and try to educate, cultivate and of course (this is their profession after all) evangelize
  3. Military and banking interests move in and rape everything in their path.
This is an oversimplification but I have yet to see a Church order to do what the European mercenaries ultimately did. Pizarro is not the Church, the Portuguese and Spanish princes are not the Church, and if that priest Pizarro teamed up with had conscious immoral intentions then even he was not the Church. There is a mountain of evidence to indicate that the Church had benevolent designs for the New World and only dubious anecdotes that support the hypothesis that the Church wanted to murder Native Americans.
 
Do not try to make an argument that isolated failures of men make the religion. You know better.
I am not making an argument, I am answering your question. You asked if the Romans executed people for not being Christian. The answer to you question is yes, and I gave you an example of one person so executed.

Yes, the Romans did execute people for not being Christian.

rossum
 
Do not try to make an argument that isolated failures of men make the religion. You know better.
This is an oversimplification but I have yet to see a Church order to do what the European mercenaries ultimately did. Pizarro is not the Church, the Portuguese and Spanish princes are not the Church, and if that priest Pizarro teamed up with had conscious immoral intentions then even he was not the Church.
Religion is the means which can be used to seek the truth about God and oneself.
Science is the means which can be used to seek the truth about the material/physical world.
Or there’s the real world. Apparently Church agencies, up to the 1980s, were involved in stealing babies or forcing mothers to give them up for adoption. Up to 450,000 in Spain and Australia. Or do we call that science to keep religion all innocent? :confused:

A decades-long trade in babies involving hospital staff and Roman Catholic Church-run children’s homes was active not only in Spain, but had an international dimension to it, further investigation by EL PAÍS can now reveal. - elpais.com/articulo/english/How/Spain/s/stolen/children/network/exported/babies/elpepueng/20110323elpeng_1/Ten

It began as a system for taking children away from families deemed politically dangerous to the regime of General Franco, which began in 1939. The system continued after the dictator’s death in 1975 as the Catholic church continued to retain a powerful influence on public life, particularly in social services. - dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049647/BBC-documentary-exposes-50-year-scandal-baby-trafficking-Catholic-church-Spain.html#ixzz1c9pqefDU

A network of Catholic Church-run children’s homes and private hospitals would take newborn infants, typically from young, impoverished single mothers, who were told that their baby had died. Estimates put the total number of children who may have been illegally adopted between 1950 and 1980 at around 300,000. - elpais.com/articulo/english/On/the/trail/of/Spain/s/stolen/children/elpepueng/20110307elpeng_4/Ten

It is estimated that more than 150,000 young women across Australia had their children taken away at birth without their consent, often never to be seen again. Women subjected to forced adoptions in Catholic-run hospitals have described being shackled and drugged during labour and prevented from seeing their children being born or holding them afterwards. - telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8660249/Australias-Roman-Catholic-Church-apologises-for-forced-adoptions.html

Several Catholic entities in Australia have issued apologizes to thousands of women over forced adoption practices. Apologies were issued by Australia’s Roman Catholic Church as well as Catholic Health Australia, which is the largest non-government provider of health. Other Catholic entities to join the apology were the Sisters of Mercy and the Diocese of Maitland Newcastle. - christianpost.com/news/roman-catholic-church-issues-apology-to-thousands-of-australian-women-52878/

The apologies were met with skepticism from the forced adoptions support group Origins. “We cannot accept apologies for something that had never been handled according to law”, said the spokeswoman Lily Arthur. - vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/world-news/detail/articolo/adozioni-australia-chiesa-adoptions-australia-church-adopciones-australia-iglesia-6206/


(According to ABC news, BBC America will air the Spanish case on Nov. 3rd).
 
Or there’s the real world. Apparently Church agencies, up to the 1980s, were involved in stealing babies or forcing mothers to give them up for adoption. Up to 450,000 in Spain and Australia. Or do we call that science to keep religion all innocent? :confused:

A decades-long trade in babies involving hospital staff and Roman Catholic Church-run children’s homes was active not only in Spain, but had an international dimension to it, further investigation by EL PAÍS can now reveal. - elpais.com/articulo/english/How/Spain/s/stolen/children/network/exported/babies/elpepueng/20110323elpeng_1/Ten

It began as a system for taking children away from families deemed politically dangerous to the regime of General Franco, which began in 1939. The system continued after the dictator’s death in 1975 as the Catholic church continued to retain a powerful influence on public life, particularly in social services. - dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049647/BBC-documentary-exposes-50-year-scandal-baby-trafficking-Catholic-church-Spain.html#ixzz1c9pqefDU

A network of Catholic Church-run children’s homes and private hospitals would take newborn infants, typically from young, impoverished single mothers, who were told that their baby had died. Estimates put the total number of children who may have been illegally adopted between 1950 and 1980 at around 300,000. - elpais.com/articulo/english/On/the/trail/of/Spain/s/stolen/children/elpepueng/20110307elpeng_4/Ten

It is estimated that more than 150,000 young women across Australia had their children taken away at birth without their consent, often never to be seen again. Women subjected to forced adoptions in Catholic-run hospitals have described being shackled and drugged during labour and prevented from seeing their children being born or holding them afterwards. - telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8660249/Australias-Roman-Catholic-Church-apologises-for-forced-adoptions.html

Several Catholic entities in Australia have issued apologizes to thousands of women over forced adoption practices. Apologies were issued by Australia’s Roman Catholic Church as well as Catholic Health Australia, which is the largest non-government provider of health. Other Catholic entities to join the apology were the Sisters of Mercy and the Diocese of Maitland Newcastle. - christianpost.com/news/roman-catholic-church-issues-apology-to-thousands-of-australian-women-52878/

The apologies were met with skepticism from the forced adoptions support group Origins. “We cannot accept apologies for something that had never been handled according to law”, said the spokeswoman Lily Arthur. - vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/world-news/detail/articolo/adozioni-australia-chiesa-adoptions-australia-church-adopciones-australia-iglesia-6206/


(According to ABC news, BBC America will air the Spanish case on Nov. 3rd).
NewsFlash: 33AD; First Pope of the Catholic Church denies Son of God three times; Christ’s hand-picked Apostle in the Catholic Church sells the Son of God to the torturers and murderers for 30 pieces of silver, then commits suicide. All the First Bishops of the Catholic Church abandon the Son of God… NewsFlash… NewsFlash…*
 
This is an oversimplification but I have yet to see a Church order to do what the European mercenaries ultimately did. Pizarro is not the Church, the Portuguese and Spanish princes are not the Church, and if that priest Pizarro teamed up with had conscious immoral intentions then even he was not the Church. There is a mountain of evidence to indicate that the Church had benevolent designs for the New World and only dubious anecdotes that support the hypothesis that the Church wanted to murder Native Americans.
I mentioned Atahualpa because this is the first story that came to my mind when we were talking about religions being forced on to people earlier in this thread. I always heard the story that a priest gave Atahualpa ether the Bible or a prayer book and told him that was the word of God and because he dismissed Christianity and tossed the book away, he was executed.
You’re right that it’s not like the Pope himself ordered to kill Atahualpa and that the greed of the Spaniards was the main motive but in general I just mentioned this story because it was claimed in this thread that people of other religions are either too ignorant to realize their religion is false or are they’re being forced to believe in their religion which is why they don’t believe in Christianity. In this context I mentioned that Christianity has a history of force itself.
Christianity didn’t spread to various parts of the world only by missionaries who lovingly spread the Gospels. People were often forced to accept this belief and forbidden(often by death) to practice their own “pagan” religion, no matter if this was the case of the indigenous population of the New World or the Germanic tribes of Central Europe.

People often forget that the Church is a billion dollar business.
 
NewsFlash: 33AD; First Pope of the Catholic Church denies Son of God three times; Christ’s hand-picked Apostle in the Catholic Church sells the Son of God to the torturers and murderers for 30 pieces of silver, then commits suicide. All the First Bishops of the Catholic Church abandon the Son of God… NewsFlash… NewsFlash…*
The babies, now adults, feel defiled and abandoned, but you could always send your joke to one of their support groups to see if it helps them feel any better :eek:.

My point in posting it was that propaganda making out science and secularism to be sinful and materialistic while religion is pristine and wondrous seems childish, detached from reality, and may make the world worse not better. Christians walk in the real world, don’t we?
 
The babies, now adults, feel defiled and abandoned, but you could always send your joke to one of their support groups to see if it helps them feel any better :eek:.

My point in posting it was that propaganda making out science and secularism to be sinful and materialistic while religion is pristine and wondrous seems childish, detached from reality, and may make the world worse not better. Christians walk in the real world, don’t we?
Why call it a joke, its true. Have you never heard Catholicism called the hospital for sinners?
 
Why call it a joke, its true.
You put “newsflash” around it.
Have you never heard Catholicism called the hospital for sinners?
Bro, there’s soundbites and there’s the real world. It seems that what happened in Australia originated from the stigma of unmarried pregnancies in many Christian denominations. Doesn’t seem like much of a hospital, forcibly taking away their babies for ever, unless you spotted something I can’t see.
 
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