Science & Religion

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You put “newsflash” around it.

Bro, there’s soundbites and there’s the real world. It seems that what happened in Australia originated from the stigma of unmarried pregnancies in many Christian denominations. Doesn’t seem like much of a hospital, forcibly taking away their babies for ever, unless you spotted something I can’t see.
Newsflash yes it is no newsflash at all. There are heresies and troubles right from the beginning. But that has nothing to do with Christianity, it has to do with people.
You seemed to think someone had said that Christianity is made up of perfect people.
[btw, the sinners in the hospital are not the victims, they are everybody]
 
Or there’s the real world. Apparently Church agencies, up to the 1980s, were involved in stealing babies or forcing mothers to give them up for adoption. Up to 450,000 in Spain and Australia. Or do we call that science to keep religion all innocent?
Inocente,
I have had personal friendships with a number of Protestants, some living admirably and others more on the edge of things, i.e. the human condition. I did notice one thing peculiar about Protestants. On the one hand they seek to follow the precepts of Christ as given to the Apostles, and on the other hand they are dedicated to tearing down the Church those same Apostles established. I understand that they are in this precarious position because of history, not choice, so I try not to take it personally when they start ranting about the evils of Catholicism. I mention this previous experience because I have noticed that most of your posts exhibit this schizophrenic approach. It is clear that you take your faith seriously, but it is also clear that in your historically based desire to malign the Church you often conflict yourself. This latest post is another example of your Jack Chick style of attack. Find something controversial that an individual or group affiliated with the Church did wrong, accentuate the faults of the actors, ignore the original intent and Church mandate, and then throw the whole mess into the lap of a Pope who most likely did not even know anything about the enterprise. VOILÀ, the Catholic Church is evil. From the information you provided (haven’t had the time or inclination to look it up yet) we have some hospitals and maybe an orphanage in Australia who are arranging adoptions for unwed mothers. Great, right? No. The Protestant playbook never allows one to examine original intent, so let’s just jump to the messy part. The fact that every human endeavour has messy parts is irrelevant because the mission here is to establish that Catholicism is evil. So, the next step is to locate the unwed mothers who wanted to keep their babies but for some reason needed the hospital/orphanage/adoption agency to keep them and their babies alive. If these mothers had the means to support themselves and their babies, why were they in the hospital in the first place? Irrelevant, stick to the purpose, Catholics are evil. The final step is to introduce the idea that the babies were being sold on the black market to feather the pockets of Catholic doctors, nurses, and Church officials. It doesn’t matter if this is true or not, or even plausible. No, just get the accusation out there, let the plebes argue about it, and look up the next schizoid tract for post #2000.
 
Have you proven it is untrue?
Here is the quote:

"“The sun is an invisible electromagnetic battery revolving in the universe’s center on a 24-year cycle. Our visible sun is only a reflection, as is the moon, with the stars reflecting off seven mercurial discs that float in the sphere’s center. Inside the earth there are three separate atmospheres: the first composed of oxygen and nitrogen and closest to the earth; the second, a hydrogen atmosphere above it; the third, an aboron (sic) atmosphere at the center. The earth’s shell is one hundred miles thick and has seventeen layers. The outer seven are metallic with a gold rind on the outermost layer, the middle five are mineral and the five inward are geologic strata. Inside the shell there is life, outside a void.”

First, the universe has no center. Second, the light from any object outside the solar system would take a lot longer than 24 years to reach us; electromagnetic radiation would take even longer. There is no scientific evidence of an invisible electromagnetic battery of which the sun is a reflection. The sun burns 500 million tons of hydrogen a day by atomic fusion, creating its own light. It doesn’t need to reflect anything.
The earth’s atmosphere has been well studied and contains no such undiscovered element as “aboron”. That name sounds like a cranky made-up name, as in “aboron drugs”.
The earth’s crust has layers, but more than seventeen. The “outer layer” would be the one farthest from the center, namely, the surface. See any gold underfoot? This isn’t the New Jerusalem.
Need I go on?
 
Need I go on?
So there aren’t any dinosaurs living in the center of the earth?😃
I once met this German stoner in South America. He had this weird belief that aliens live beneath the surface of the earth and control the whole planet. One day they will save us from Capitalism. Obviously I believed every word…😛
It’s odd what people believe in. I had a good friend once who was a brilliant cartoonist. He met the wrong woman and now they try to heal people with angels. They give expensive seminars and treat people with the help of angels. Oddly I met them at a barbecue and his “girlfriend” is totally obese and downed two bottles of wine that evening. He had about ten bottles of beer. Funny that the angels can’t heal them from drinking and obesity:rolleyes:

I’ll stick to science.
 
Here is the quote:

"“The sun is an invisible electromagnetic battery revolving in the universe’s center on a 24-year cycle. Our visible sun is only a reflection, as is the moon, with the stars reflecting off seven mercurial discs that float in the sphere’s center. Inside the earth there are three separate atmospheres: the first composed of oxygen and nitrogen and closest to the earth; the second, a hydrogen atmosphere above it; the third, an aboron (sic) atmosphere at the center. The earth’s shell is one hundred miles thick and has seventeen layers. The outer seven are metallic with a gold rind on the outermost layer, the middle five are mineral and the five inward are geologic strata. Inside the shell there is life, outside a void.”

First, the universe has no center. Second, the light from any object outside the solar system would take a lot longer than 24 years to reach us; electromagnetic radiation would take even longer. There is no scientific evidence of an invisible electromagnetic battery of which the sun is a reflection. The sun burns 500 million tons of hydrogen a day by atomic fusion, creating its own light. It doesn’t need to reflect anything.
The earth’s atmosphere has been well studied and contains no such undiscovered element as “aboron”. That name sounds like a cranky made-up name, as in “aboron drugs”.
The earth’s crust has layers, but more than seventeen. The “outer layer” would be the one farthest from the center, namely, the surface. See any gold underfoot? This isn’t the New Jerusalem.
Need I go on?
What are you talking about? …sun is a battery??
 
I have had personal friendships with a number of Protestants, some living admirably and others more on the edge of things, i.e. the human condition. I did notice one thing peculiar about Protestants.
A rule of life is that driving aggressively in a bad temper attracts bad tempered drivers like moths to a flame, while driving sweetly sends them far, far away. So maybe if you stopped labeling the friends as Protestants, that one peculiar thing would also go far away.
I understand that they are in this precarious position because of history, not choice, so I try not to take it personally when they start ranting about the evils of Catholicism. I mention this previous experience because I have noticed that most of your posts exhibit this schizophrenic approach.
lol Not sure how history put them in a precarious position, and your remote internet diagnosis of me having schizophrenia is also wrong. You’ll see from above that I too can be condescending. 🙂

When at first … let’s take it from the top. I was away from the thread for a week and coming back was struck by the “my religion can do no wrong” element. Philosophy is about reasoning things out, and dividing people up into abstract tribes like science and religion so as to say one bunch is perfect and the other not isn’t philosophy. All people are imperfect, all organisations make mistakes, and that applies to Christians in whatever guise - the Church, Baptists, whatever. The articles I linked show this, they’re the proof.
It is clear that you take your faith seriously, but it is also clear that in your historically based desire to malign the Church you often conflict yourself. This latest post is another example of your Jack Chick style of attack. Find something controversial that an individual or group affiliated with the Church did wrong, accentuate the faults of the actors, ignore the original intent and Church mandate, and then throw the whole mess into the lap of a Pope who most likely did not even know anything about the enterprise. VOILÀ, the Catholic Church is evil.
We’re not in Northern Ireland during the Troubles, so Catholic vs. Protestant is a bit passé. Maybe it was more politically correct of you to stereotype me as a Protestant instead of Spanish or male :rolleyes:. From the above, you might detect that if I’m against drawing arbitrary battle lines between religionists and scientists, further divisions ain’t going to help. Did Jesus tell us to put stereotypes down in order to raise ourselves up? And who is Jack Chick? How did I accentuate anything by quoting articles from newspapers? Where did I throw anything in the lap of the Pope? Are you making this stuff up? Were you having a rant? 😃
*From the information you provided (haven’t had the time or inclination to look it up yet) we have some hospitals and maybe an orphanage in Australia who are arranging adoptions for unwed mothers. Great, right? *
El País, ABC, the BBC, etc. say 450,000 babies. Mothers shackled, drugged or told their babies had died. If you didn’t have the inclination to read then it explain why a lot of what you wrote didn’t make sense and was just attacking the messenger.

But back on topic, I’ll repeat my point that it’s lame to pretend that religion is spotless, and make the further point that it’s even more lame to say religious truth must conflict with scientific truth.
 
Newsflash yes it is no newsflash at all. There are heresies and troubles right from the beginning. But that has nothing to do with Christianity, it has to do with people.
Great, you got my point.
You seemed to think someone had said that Christianity is made up of perfect people.
Rats, no you didn’t. 😃
 
I have had personal friendships with a number of Protestants, some living admirably and others more on the edge of things, i.e. the human condition. I did notice one thing peculiar about Protestants.
A rule of life is that driving aggressively in a bad temper attracts bad tempered drivers like moths to a flame, while driving sweetly sends them far, far away. So maybe if you stopped labeling the friends as Protestants, that one peculiar thing would also go far away.
I understand that they are in this precarious position because of history, not choice, so I try not to take it personally when they start ranting about the evils of Catholicism. I mention this previous experience because I have noticed that most of your posts exhibit this schizophrenic approach.
Ahem. You’ll see from above that I too can be condescending. 🙂 Not sure how history put them in a precarious position, and your remote internet diagnosis of me having schizophrenia is also wrong.

When at first … let’s take it from the top. I was away from the thread for a week and coming back was struck by the “my religion can do no wrong” element. Philosophy is about reasoning things out, and dividing people up into abstract tribes like science and religion so as to say one bunch is perfect and the other not isn’t philosophy. All people are imperfect, all organisations make mistakes, and that applies to Christians in whatever guise - the Church, Baptists, whatever. The articles I linked show this, they’re the proof.
It is clear that you take your faith seriously, but it is also clear that in your historically based desire to malign the Church you often conflict yourself. This latest post is another example of your Jack Chick style of attack. Find something controversial that an individual or group affiliated with the Church did wrong, accentuate the faults of the actors, ignore the original intent and Church mandate, and then throw the whole mess into the lap of a Pope who most likely did not even know anything about the enterprise. VOILÀ, the Catholic Church is evil.
Ahem. We’re not in Northern Ireland during the Troubles, so Catholic vs. Protestant is a bit passé. Maybe it was more politically correct of you to stereotype me as a Protestant instead of Spanish or male :rolleyes:. From the above, you might detect that if I’m against drawing arbitrary battle lines between religionists and scientists, further divisions ain’t going to help. Did Jesus tell us to put stereotypes down in order to raise ourselves up? And who is Jack Chick? How did I accentuate anything by quoting articles from newspapers? Where did I throw anything in the lap of the Pope? Are you making this stuff up? Were you having a rant? 😃
*From the information you provided (haven’t had the time or inclination to look it up yet) we have some hospitals and maybe an orphanage in Australia who are arranging adoptions for unwed mothers. Great, right? *
Ahem. El País, ABC, the BBC, etc. say 450,000 babies. Mothers shackled, drugged or told their babies had died. If you didn’t have the inclination to read then it explains why a lot of what you wrote didn’t make too much sense, and came across as just attacking the messenger.

But back on topic, I repeat that it’s lame to pretend that religion is spotless, and make the further point that it’s even more lame to say religious truth must conflict with scientific truth.
 
Just as a matter of interest; how does the universe have no centre?
Standard Relativity. Relative to what do we measure the centre? It is like asking for a “centre” on a spherical surface.

rossum
 
Standard Relativity. Relative to what do we measure the centre? It is like asking for a “centre” on a spherical surface.

rossum
I don’t think the question is where is the centre but shouldn’t it have a centre?
 
A rule of life is that driving aggressively in a bad temper attracts bad tempered drivers like moths to a flame, while driving sweetly sends them far, far away. So maybe if you stopped labeling the friends as Protestants, that one peculiar thing would also go far away.
Jack Chick is a guy who is famous for collecting dubious dirt on the Catholic Church and sensationalizing it for public consumption. His stuff is so offensive it is almost funny, you can look it up on the web. The reason I compared your posts to him is that you have done this (slung dirt on the Church). Personally I am not interested in being sweet, but I have to wonder how passing on the distorted “message” that the Church steals babies and sells them on the black market fits the bill of driving sweetly. I wish that you had not used the expression “don’t shoot the messenger”. Another Protestant friend of mine said this to me a few months back when he reported that JPII and Benedict secretly condone pedophilia. I am trying my best to be tolerant but your use of that phrase triggered a highly unpleasant flashback.

Pointing out that Western news agencies q, r and s have reported something adds no credence to any story. I don’t know what things are like in Spain, but here in North America for every truth the news media gives us they spit out two lies, especially if the Catholic Church is involved. I have done further research into the baby stealing story and it is full of holes. Complicating everything is the problem of sorting out who did what. In Australia the actors were the government, the medical professionals, and religious. Which group was holding the reins? In Spain the situation is even more convoluted. You know a lot more about Spain than I do but what I do know is that in addition to the multi-group confusion, Spain has the added complexity of the intermingling of the government and the Catholic Church due to administration policy under Franco. This blurs all the lines and has probably produced a lot of nominalism (people who call themselves Catholic but actually hate the Church). I see no way of untangling all this as an outsider. Let’s wait for a two-hour interview with one the Australian nuns - this is probably as close to the truth as we will ever get.
 
Science and religion are contradictory by their definitions. Religion is an absolute positive assertion based on no evidence to support that assertion. Science is always suspect to change as new evidence comes in to challenge old theories. Do we see that in religion? Of course not because by its definition it can never change. Despite any evidence that challenges the existence of God, theists will just change what God is. If you say God is red and I prove God is not red, you’ll just say God must be blue. Just because science cannot disprove the existence of God does not provide a good reason to believe in God. There are a million absurd beliefs science cannot particularly disprove, but does that mean I should believe them simply because they cannot be disproved? No. The only good reason to believe in something is if there is evidence for it, unless it’s a subjective opinion about art or something. But all objective truth can be explained through evidence. The burden of proof is on the beliefs being asserted. Science is the study of absolute truth because it looks only for evidence to explain the world around us. Conversely, religion comes from the heart and is therefore irrational to be trusted as absolute truth.
 
Science and religion are contradictory by their definitions. Religion is an absolute positive assertion based on no evidence to support that assertion. Science is always suspect to change as new evidence comes in to challenge old theories. Do we see that in religion? Of course not because by its definition it can never change. Despite any evidence that challenges the existence of God, theists will just change what God is. If you say God is red and I prove God is not red, you’ll just say God must be blue. Just because science cannot disprove the existence of God does not provide a good reason to believe in God. There are a million absurd beliefs science cannot particularly disprove, but does that mean I should believe them simply because they cannot be disproved? No. The only good reason to believe in something is if there is evidence for it, unless it’s a subjective opinion about art or something. But all objective truth can be explained through evidence. The burden of proof is on the beliefs being asserted. Science is the study of absolute truth because it looks only for evidence to explain the world around us. Conversely, religion comes from the heart and is therefore irrational to be trusted as absolute truth.
Oh boy…

Let us start with your faulty definition of religion. Religion from its root words is - to bind oneself to God. The reason God cannot change is He is the truth and truth cannot change.

Here is the problem with a science alone belief - science by its own definition has a limited say as to the goings on in the universe. It is limited to our 5 senses, 3 dimensions and time. Now to believe that existing in this limited frame that is all there is is what is irrational. Science has painted itself into a corner.
 
Science and religion are contradictory by their definitions. Religion is an absolute positive assertion based on no evidence to support that assertion. Science is always suspect to change as new evidence comes in to challenge old theories. Do we see that in religion? Of course not because by its definition it can never change. Despite any evidence that challenges the existence of God, theists will just change what God is. If you say God is red and I prove God is not red, you’ll just say God must be blue. Just because science cannot disprove the existence of God does not provide a good reason to believe in God. There are a million absurd beliefs science cannot particularly disprove, but does that mean I should believe them simply because they cannot be disproved? No. The only good reason to believe in something is if there is evidence for it, unless it’s a subjective opinion about art or something. But all objective truth can be explained through evidence. The burden of proof is on the beliefs being asserted. Science is the study of absolute truth because it looks only for evidence to explain the world around us. Conversely, religion comes from the heart and is therefore irrational to be trusted as absolute truth.
👍
 
To quote Socrates; “As for me, all I know is that I know nothing”.

Of course, just like it is an assumption that any faith is the truth.
Many Catholics believe their religion is a fact but so do many Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists etc. Depending on where you are born by chance and your upbringing is what determines what you believe is the truth or were you born as a Jew or Muslim just to find out your religion is a lie while catholicism is the truth?. If you happen to be born in a devoted Hindu family in Bombay, you will most likely be a Hindu all your life. If you are born in a devoted Catholic family in Arkansas, you will most likely have Catholic beliefs.
Everyone thinks his religion is a fact which is why there have been wars about this ever since mankind exists.
The religions ARE facts. There exist these systems of belief, worship, practice. They lie at the bases of several human societies. Do you think that because there are many such “faiths” that are different that None is true? That it is impossible that one is true and the others not? Or to put it another way, that one has the best story to tell?
 
Science is an attempt to describe the world that we see. Very often it also attempts to describe the world we do not see. The electron is not something we can see but a hypothetical entity whose existence is inferred by observing certain evident results. But to confirm its existence we must suppose that at sometimes it behaves like a particle and sometimes like a wave. Of course, it shares with a particle we can see or a wave that we can see, only the same mathematic descriptions. In fact, it may be, ultilmately no more than a sum of probabilities so far as we can determine by our senses.
 
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