Science & Religion

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Another photo of the altar is seen below with the rock of Golgotha behind the glass. The crack in the rock continues down to the chapel of Adam on the lower floor, and according to tradition the blood of Jesus dripped down the crack to the skull of Adam.

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Lui said:
For me to believe we all came from a single couple called Adam and Eve, and that Adam lived to be a thousand years old is absurd.
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Catholicism does not have a doctrine that Adam lived to be a thousand years old. 😃
 
inocente said:
Which I assume means the Church teaches that all species are in the image of God, not just humans, that’s great as it’s my Baptist perspective too. 🙂
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Pardon me, I am still trying to figure out which “church” teaches that all species are in the image of God. Or could it be possible that some, not all, people do not have a clue regarding a transcendent pure spirit?
 
  • “Because of its common origin the human race forms a unity, for ‘from one ancestor God made all nations to inhabit the whole earth’ [Acts 17:26; cf. Tob 8:6]” (CCC 360).
  • “The first man was not only created good, but was also established in friendship with his Creator and in harmony with himself and with the creation around him, in a state that would be surpassed only by the glory of the new creation in Christ” (CCC 374).
  • “This entire harmony of original justice, foreseen for man in God’s plan, will be lost [in Genesis 3] by the sin of our first parents” (CCC 379).
  • “By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings” (CCC 416).
 
grannymh said:
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Catholicism does not have a doctrine that Adam lived for 930 years. 😃
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We get that from Scripture itself. I find it not hard to believe. Adam as the prototypical human possessed preternatural gifts, including bodily immortality and freedom from sickness.


  1. *] Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
    *] The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
    *] The donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality. (De fide.)
    *] The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
    *] The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
    *] Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
    *] Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
    *] Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
    *] Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.
    *] Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)
    *] Original Sin consists in the deprivation of grace caused by the free act of sin committed by the head of the race. (Sent. communis.)
    *] Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.)
    *] In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatus. D788 et seq.)
    *] Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)

    As science advances we find that indeed it is conceivable that humans lost this capability when sin and corruption entered the world after the act of disobedience.

    Adam was created in a genetically pristine state.
 
inocente said:
If you pick out someone to win the prize as the first human, you’ll also have to say his parents are not human, which isn’t logical or particularly moral. Evolution works gradually on a population, the first humans were a group, not a couple.
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  1. Do you have archaeological evidence for that hypothesis?
  2. Do you have any evidence that being human is determined solely by biological attributes?
 
tonyrey said:
  1. Do you have archaeological evidence for that hypothesis?
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We have archaeological and palaeontological evidence.
  1. Do you have any evidence that being human is determined solely by biological attributes?
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How do you see archaeology and “biological attributes” being related? For example, is tool making a biological attribute?

rossum
 
rossum said:
We evolved from a fish with 4 fins, and which kept its fins on stumps. See Coelacanths and Lungfish for examples of fins-on-stumps.

Most animal with limbs do indeed have six - insects.

Symmetry is down to embryonic development. One side is a copy of the other. Read Shubin’s “Your Inner Fish” for more information.

Evolution is not a random process.

rossum
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I was with you until you equated warm blooded animals with insects; I thought this was science.
And evolution is either a random process, or a planned process. I believe that most people consider it random, unless there are unnatural (or perhaps supernatural) forces working on it.
 
inocente said:
That’s a strange thing to think, that it’s random chance, of course it ain’t.

Why would four limbs prove that God created animals? Because three legged animals have a harder time surviving, so any species of three legged animals would tend to die out pretty smartish, which is why we don’t see any. Ditto for your other examples.
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Why not 6 or 8 limbs; I would be better off with more hands, or four feet on which I could balance.
The proposition is that an intelligent being created mankind along with the animals. Show me some fossils or evidence that anything other than 4 limbed creatures existed.

Evolution is not fussy, it would have tried multiple limbs, asymetrical beings, because there is no intelligence behind evolution, it just tries everything.

If it is not random chance, then there is intelligence behind evolution.
 
rossum said:
We have archaeological and palaeontological evidence.

How do you see archaeology and “biological attributes” being related? For example, is tool making a biological attribute?

rossum
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Since I totally disagree about the amount of intelligence needed for tool making according to the pictures I have seen, please allow my personal interpretation.

The original question was “Do you have any evidence that being human is determined solely by biological attributes?”
I offer that the only evidence technically allowed is solely biological or biological sentience which, in my opinion, is exhibited in the pictures I have seen coming from archaeology digs. And I do realize that some would classify the same digs as anthropology. Just realized that I am using an older version of “digs”.:o

Regardless, I am not impressed by all the attempts to define human nature while, at the same time, eliminating the spiritual principle.
 
grannymh said:
Since I totally disagree about the amount of intelligence needed for tool making according to the pictures I have seen, please allow my personal interpretation.

The original question was “Do you have any evidence that being human is determined solely by biological attributes?”
I offer that the only evidence technically allowed is solely biological or biological sentience which, in my opinion, is exhibited in the pictures I have seen coming from archaeology digs. And I do realize that some would classify the same digs as anthropology. Just realized that I am using an older version of “digs”.:o

Regardless, I am not impressed by all the attempts to define human nature while, at the same time, eliminating the spiritual principle.
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Thank you for pointing that out - to a Buddhist! 🙂
 
Wardog said:
Why not 6 or 8 limbs; I would be better off with more hands, or four feet on which I could balance.
The proposition is that an intelligent being created mankind along with the animals. Show me some fossils or evidence that anything other than 4 limbed creatures existed.

Evolution is not fussy, it would have tried multiple limbs, asymetrical beings, because there is no intelligence behind evolution, it just tries everything.

If it is not random chance, then there is intelligence behind evolution.
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Blind evolution is hardly an adequate explanation of hindsight, insight and foresight! 👍
 
Einstein and Newton both stuggled mightily to understand the most complex mathematical laws of nature. How is it that Nature, without struggling to understand, produced these complex mathematical laws, and laid the groundwork for them, at the time of the Big Bang? :confused:
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Einstein and Newton both stuggled mightily to understand the most complex mathematical laws of nature. How is it that Nature, without struggling to understand, produced these complex mathematical laws, and laid the groundwork for them, at the time of the Big Bang? :confused:
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Are you asking about an atheistic viewpoint? If so, then I don’t think that your question makes sense. Nature isn’t an entity that has to conceive of mathematical laws before writing them into reality.
 
Shredderbeam
**
Are you asking about an atheistic viewpoint? If so, then I don’t think that your question makes sense.**

It doesn’t make any sense to me that nature could blindly create the kind of complex mathematical laws that even a Newton or an Einstein struggled to understand. And we still don’t understand all of them … maybe never will.

Kindly explain how that is possible. Or as an atheist do you not think it has to be explained?
 
Paul A.M. Dirac Quantum Physicist, Matter-Anti-Matter

“God is a mathematician of a very high order and He used advanced mathematics in constructing the universe.”
 
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