Science & Religion

[inocente]

This song was perfect. I played it when I got home after participating in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It joins “Worthy is the Lamb” in my favorites list. Thank you for both.

But way too much arm waving.

What needs to be said right away is – if you are looking for the complete, priority message of Catholicism, you may possibly be in the wrong two forums. I have not been in the other “spirituality” forums so I am not sure what to recommend. All I can say is that there are millions of Catholics out there who are feeding the poor and comforting the sick. My generation and older Catholics were in the front lines in the battle for interracial justice. Catholics continue this work today.

Yes lots of good work goes on, and none of it would stop in the absence of adam-and-eve-ism. The only result of adam-and-eve-ism is to cause completely unnecessary conflict between Christians, since Genesis has nothing to say about Christ and Christ has nothing to say about Genesis. None of those arm waving folk in what we like to call THE REAL WORLD would lose their faith if Genesis was ripped from their Bibles - the only effect would be to attract more to the faith by removing the irrelevant adam-and-eve and all the related irrelevant fisticuffs.

Name ten rousing songs about adam and eve. Name one.

 

[inocente]

I did not freel threatened. Being called “the Antichrist” or a “heretic” is merely amusing, and being attacked by the “new atheists” for believing in God is irrelevant to my professional work.

There’s a cartoon somewhere of a fearsome middle aged lady in horn rimmed glasses standing atop a bleak hill – Auntie Christ .

No part of this post may be taken to imply that fearsome middle age, horned rimmed glasses or standing on hills are necessary features of aunties.

 

[grannymh]

But way too much arm waving.

As a genuine Catholic Charismatic, I agree that there was too much arm waving. However, I will consider the waving as a response to the music and not be critical of it.
Oh dear. Now I am vulnerable for an attack by another group.

Yes lots of good work goes on, and none of it would stop in the absence of adam-and-eve-ism. The only result of adam-and-eve-ism is to cause completely unnecessary conflict between Christians, since Genesis has nothing to say about Christ and Christ has nothing to say about Genesis.

What is implied with your comment “Genesis has nothing to say about Christ and Christ has nothing to say about Genesis” is a direct denial of Original Sin which eventually denies that Christ is True God. Is Christ just a prophet among prophets?

None of those arm waving folk in what we like to call THE REAL WORLD would lose their faith if Genesis was ripped from their Bibles - the only effect would be to attract more to the faith by removing the irrelevant adam-and-eve and all the related irrelevant fisticuffs.

By removing the spiritual soul which is revealed in the first three chapters of Genesis, what will ultimately happen to faith?

Name ten rousing songs about adam and eve. Name one.

My belief in God is not based on popular hand-waving rousing songs about Adam and Eve. Possibly such a song does exist somewhere in the back country. Nonetheless, the possibility of such a song is not the same as a real possibility of Adam and Eve’s existence and the real relationship between Adam’s sin in the first three chapters of* Genesis* and Jesus Christ as the Lamb of Salvation.

Catholicism is different from other Christian faiths. There are people, including some Catholics, who would like to see Catholicism give up its basic doctrines regarding Jesus Christ’s mission on earth and become one of the crowd.

As you might have noticed, discussions between StAnastasia and myself go way back. Posts 1134, 1136, 1137, 1138,and 1139, you will get a better understanding, hopefully, of what is happening on CAF.

 

[StAnastasia]

There’s a cartoon somewhere of a fearsome middle aged lady in horn rimmed glasses standing atop a bleak hill – Auntie Christ .

Is this her?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

No part of this post may be taken to imply that fearsome middle age, horned rimmed glasses or standing on hills are necessary features of aunties.

Inocente, I did not suspect you of dismissing the value of aunties!

 

[StAnastasia]

Catholicism is different from other Christian faiths. There are people, including some Catholics, who would like to see Catholicism give up its basic doctrines regarding Jesus Christ’s mission on earth and become one of the crowd.

I haven’t met those folk.

 

[grannymh]

I haven’t met those folk.

 

[StAnastasia]

As far as I know, the understanding of human genetics as being the mechanism for human propagation is never outdated. Natural reproduction is still, and will continue to be, the mode for producing the anatomy of human descendants.

Granny, do you understand how reproduction works? You should not interpret genetics as somehow standing in opposition to reproduction. When parents mate they share their gametes, such that their offspring combine the genetic information of both parents.

For those who trust in God…It is understandable that in order to insure [sic] the unity of the human race and consequently Christ could hang bleeding on a cross to save all people, humanity, including its spiritual principle, would have to descend from the same two parents.

Humanity does indeed descend from the same parents. We are one species, not multiple species.

 

[grannymh]

Humanity does indeed descend from the same parents. We are one species, not multiple species.

Catholicism specifically teaches that humanity descended from two, real, sole parents biblically known as Adam and Eve. We are a single species at the last point on the scientific cladistic diagram. We are a single species because the origin of true human nature consists of only two parents, father and mother.

This belief, monogenism, is required because of the Catholic belief that Jesus Christ is the Divine Redeemer of all humanity. It comes down to a choice between creature human reasoning and the actions of God, the Creator.

 

[buffalo]

Lui;8544857:

Even StAnastasia is sometimes attacked in personal ways although she regards herself as Catholic and her faith has been questioned more than once.

I must not be a “thinking Catholic” then.

I think I will go crawl under a rock…boo hoo…

 

[buffalo]

Granny, if you will recall, the context was that you claimed essentially that scientists do not observe what scientists *in fact *observe. The fact is that the evidence from the human genome is that the number of human breeding pairs never dropped below 3,000. The possible interpretations for a Catholic include the following:

(

(3) Monogenism is true, but God has made it appear as though the number of human breeding pairs never dropped below 3,000.
.

I have already shown the faulty assumptions this is built on. But go ahead you can just disregard it…

 

[buffalo]

But way too much arm waving.

Yes lots of good work goes on, and none of it would stop in the absence of adam-and-eve-ism. The only result of adam-and-eve-ism is to cause completely unnecessary conflict between Christians, since Genesis has nothing to say about Christ and Christ has nothing to say about Genesis. None of those arm waving folk in what we like to call THE REAL WORLD would lose their faith if Genesis was ripped from their Bibles - the only effect would be to attract more to the faith by removing the irrelevant adam-and-eve and all the related irrelevant fisticuffs.

Name ten rousing songs about adam and eve. Name one.

Huh?

Ever heard of the first Adam and the 2nd Adam?

Genesis is ripe with references to Christ.

Jesus quoted several times from Genesis.

 

[StAnastasia]

Catholicism specifically teaches that humanity descended from two, real, sole parents biblically known as Adam and Eve. We are a single species at the last point on the scientific cladistic diagram. We are a single species because the origin of true human nature consists of only two parents, father and mother.

From a scientific point of view this claim is as false as the Maori claim that Father Sky and Mother Earth were pried apart by their children who wanted room to live and grow (this is why it rains – Father Sky is crying for his wife whom he cannot embrace.)

This belief, monogenism, is required because of the Catholic belief that Jesus Christ is the Divine Redeemer of all humanity. It comes down to a choice between creature human reasoning and the actions of God, the Creator.

Not only is monogenism demonstrably false from a scientific point of view, but it is unnecessary from a theological point of view. Christ’s life, death, and resurrection are just as theologically significant if we do accept the findings of science as if we deny them (as you do)!

 

[Bobbebop]

we should leave Earth to survive in future? thanks

 

[StAnastasia]

we should leave Earth to survive in future? thanks

I’m not sure what you are recommending. The asteroid is going to miss us by about 201,000 miles on Wednesday, if that is what you are concerned about.

 

[inocente]

As a genuine Catholic Charismatic, I agree that there was too much arm waving. However, I will consider the waving as a response to the music and not be critical of it.
Oh dear. Now I am vulnerable for an attack by another group.

If you look closely, the experts there have a special finger-pointing wave I’ve not seen elsewhere. The rest may be shooing away flies of course.

What is implied with your comment “Genesis has nothing to say about Christ and Christ has nothing to say about Genesis” is a direct denial of Original Sin which eventually denies that Christ is True God. Is Christ just a prophet among prophets?

Nope. Original sin isn’t mentioned in the OT, the concept is based, or so I’m told, on a couple of verses by Paul. That’s not to criticize it in any way, but it remains that you won’t find it anywhere in the teaching of Christ, and therefore it can’t have any possible effect on belief in Christ as God.

By removing the spiritual soul which is revealed in the first three chapters of Genesis, what will ultimately happen to faith?

If you asked people for a passage about the spiritual soul, would any of them really suggest, or even consider, Gen 1-3? I’d have thought anything Gen 1-3 says is revealed more transparently elsewhere.

My belief in God is not based on popular hand-waving rousing songs about Adam and Eve. Possibly such a song does exist somewhere in the back country. Nonetheless, the possibility of such a song is not the same as a real possibility of Adam and Eve’s existence and the real relationship between Adam’s sin in the first three chapters of Genesis** and Jesus Christ as the Lamb of Salvation.

Catholicism is different from other Christian faiths. There are people, including some Catholics, who would like to see Catholicism give up its basic doctrines regarding Jesus Christ’s mission on earth and become one of the crowd.

What I’m getting at is the shear irrelevancy of adam-and-eve. How many lost souls come to Christ through adam-and-eve, how many hungry are fed, sick healed, souls saved, wars stopped, bridges built, through faith in adam-and-eve? None. And if that result is nada, theories about whether they were specially created or evolved or whatever aren’t going to improve it. It’s still at most a big fat zero, except that since the fisticuffs put some off, it goes negative, quite possibly it generates atheists.

I’m not going for you here, by adam-and-eve-ism I mean every Catholic, every Christian, every creationist, evolutionist or whatever who thinks Gen 1-3 is in any way not angels on pinheads. I am fearless. I am invincible. (the last sentence is to be said in a Russian accent, it’s from a Bond movie).

 

[grannymh]

From a scientific point of view this claim is as false as the Maori claim that Father Sky and Mother Earth were pried apart by their children who wanted room to live and grow (this is why it rains – Father Sky is crying for his wife whom he cannot embrace.)

It is up to you to choose between human reasoning and God the Creator.

 

[davidv]

From a scientific point of view this claim is as false as the Maori claim that Father Sky and Mother Earth were pried apart by their children who wanted room to live and grow (this is why it rains – Father Sky is crying for his wife whom he cannot embrace.)

Not only is monogenism demonstrably false from a scientific point of view, but it is unnecessary from a theological point of view. Christ’s life, death, and resurrection are just as theologically significant if we do accept the findings of science as if we deny them (as you do)!

Given the huge blind spot in the scientific view (the spiritualt), your claim of falsehood does not follow from the premises.

Most, if not all, scientific claims about the origin of man are hypotheses or theories, so it is no position to claim anything theological is false. Your claim of unnecessity also guts the doctrine original sin of most of it meaning.

 

[grannymh]

If you look closely, the experts there have a special finger-pointing wave I’ve not seen elsewhere. The rest may be shooing away flies of course.

Nope. Original sin isn’t mentioned in the OT, the concept is based, or so I’m told, on a couple of verses by Paul. That’s not to criticize it in any way, but it remains that you won’t find it anywhere in the teaching of Christ, and therefore it can’t have any possible effect on belief in Christ as God.

If you asked people for a passage about the spiritual soul, would any of them really suggest, or even consider, Gen 1-3? I’d have thought anything Gen 1-3 says is revealed more transparently elsewhere.

What I’m getting at is the shear irrelevancy of adam-and-eve. How many lost souls come to Christ through adam-and-eve, how many hungry are fed, sick healed, souls saved, wars stopped, bridges built, through faith in adam-and-eve? None. And if that result is nada, theories about whether they were specially created or evolved or whatever aren’t going to improve it. It’s still at most a big fat zero, except that since the fisticuffs put some off, it goes negative, quite possibly it generates atheists.

I’m not going for you here, by adam-and-eve-ism I mean every Catholic, every Christian, every creationist, evolutionist or whatever who thinks Gen 1-3 is in any way not angels on pinheads. I am fearless. I am invincible. (the last sentence is to be said in a Russian accent, it’s from a Bond movie).

I have presented the position of Catholicism in post 1147 and previous posts. I do not expect everyone to accept it.

It is as follows:

Catholicism specifically teaches that humanity descended from two, real, sole parents biblically known as Adam and Eve. We are a single species at the last point on the scientific cladistic diagram. We are a single species because the origin of true human nature consists of only two parents, father and mother.

This belief, monogenism, is required because of the Catholic belief that Jesus Christ is the Divine Redeemer of all humanity. It comes down to a choice between creature human reasoning and the actions of God, the Creator.

 

[inocente]

Is this her?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_KtOEDjqBEnk/Re_iaQzLC9I/AAAAAAAAARg/lQDpyI3v7Q0/s320/WizardHenryGulsh.jpg

The lighting is well fearsome, but she’s not threatening enough, I’m hoping she has apple pie in that basket (it’s dinner time). Is it from Wizard of Oz?

 

[Elizabeth502]

From Pope John Paul II:

the elaboration of a theory such as that of evolution, while obedient to the need for consistency with the observed data, must also involve importing some ideas from the philosophy of nature.

And to tell the truth, rather than speaking about the theory of evolution, it is more accurate to speak of the theories of evolution. The use of the plural is required here—in part because of the diversity of explanations regarding the mechanism of evolution, and in part because of the diversity of philosophies involved. There are materialist and reductionist theories, as well as spiritualist theories. Here the final judgment is within the competence of philosophy and, beyond that, of theology.

The magisterium of the Church takes a direct interest in the question of evolution, because it touches on the conception of man, whom Revelation tells us is created in the image and likeness of God. The conciliar constitution Gaudium et Spes has given us a magnificent exposition of this doctrine, which is one of the essential elements of Christian thought. The Council recalled that “man is the only creature on earth that God wanted for its own sake.” In other words, the human person cannot be subordinated as a means to an end, or as an instrument of either the species or the society; he has a value of his own.

Within the mystery of the risen Christ the full grandeur of this vocation is revealed to us. (Gaudium et Spes, 22) It is by virtue of his eternal soul that the whole person, including his body, possesses such great dignity. Pius XII underlined the essential point: if the origin of the human body comes through living matter which existed previously, the spiritual soul is created directly by God (“animas enim a Deo immediate creari catholica fides non retimere iubet”). (Humani Generis)

As a result, the theories of evolution which, because of the philosophies which inspire them, regard the spirit either as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a simple epiphenomenon of that matter, are incompatible with the truth about man. They are therefore unable to serve as the basis for the dignity of the human person.

With man, we find ourselves facing a different ontological order—an ontological leap, we could say. But in posing such a great ontological discontinuity, are we not breaking up the physical continuity which seems to be the main line of research about evolution in the fields of physics and chemistry? An appreciation for the different methods used in different fields of scholarship allows us to bring together two points of view which at first might seem irreconcilable. The sciences of observation describe and measure, with ever greater precision, the many manifestations of life, and write them down along the time-line. The moment of passage into the spiritual realm is not something that can be observed in this way—although we can nevertheless discern, through experimental research, a series of very valuable signs of what is specifically human life. But the experience of metaphysical knowledge, of self-consciousness and self-awareness, of moral conscience, of liberty, or of aesthetic and religious experience—these must be analyzed through philosophical reflection, while theology seeks to clarify the ultimate meaning of the Creator’s designs.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP961022.HTM