Science & Religion

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The fact that you have not met or worked with persons who espouse the infallible teaching of the Apostles preserved in the Church is an abysmal commentary on the state of catechesis. Theologians, priests, bishops and yourself are not, like the Church, protected by the gift of infallibility.
Or it could be that you are barking up the wrong tree to see a pretended “infallibility” as conferring immunity to advances in human understanding about how the world works. While doctrine does not change, its interpretation does change with time. We no longer accept a literal interpretation of the story of Joshua causing the sun to stand still.
What Elizabeth and Granny are trying to tell you is that the Source of the teaching is God himself.
And God is speaking through human discoveries about the world around us. The Church no longer opposes heliocentrism as it did in the days of Galileo, and the Church does not officially opposes the teaching of evolution.
 
Just curious. You stated that you and almost all of your fellow theologians, all priests you know and bishops you worked with interpret Adam and Eve as symbolic of mankind. You also claimed, based on your various advanced studies, that the number of human (or pre-human?) breeding pairs never dropped below 3,000. What is your theory then on when and how ensoulment transpired? A sort of spiritual ‘evolution’ that coincided with the biological/physical evolution of man? Did man ‘evolve’ later to the stage when/where he became the image of God? Or, is ‘man made in the image of God’ also not to be taken literally?
All of creation reflects the image of God in varying degrees. Homo sapiens represents the leading edge of emergent rationality and spiritual responsiveness, and therefore of the image of God. For at least forty thousand years humans have been burying their dead with provisions in expectation of an afterlife. This evinces the evolution of moral and spiritual awareness heretofore unseen in the animal world. Physically modern humans have existed for 200,000 years, and behaviorally modern humans for at least forty thousand years. From an evolutionary standpoint it would be difficult if not impossible to p(name removed by moderator)oint a single definable moment during these tens of thousands of years in which humans became endowed with “soul.” It seems to have been a gradual and imperceptible development, a question to which a good deal of research is being dedicated in fields as diverse as theology, philosophy, anthropology, anatomy, genetics, neuroscience, and cognitive science.

StAnastasia
 
Granny, I meant that the interpretation of the “Adam and Eve” story as true in a literal sense was common in a prescientific era, not that Adam and Eve literally existed in a prescientific era. Like almost all of my fellow theologians, and all the priests I know, and the bishops I have worked with, I interpret “Adam” and “Eve” as symbolic of humankind, redeemed by Jesus Christ. I suppose there are some (besides yourself and Elizabeth) who interpret Genesis 1-3 literally, but I have not met or worked or worshiped with such.

StAnastasia
Pardon me. It sounds as if you and your friends do not really understand what Divine Revelation means in the Catholic Church. It sounds like you are contradicting what you said in post 1206. “Catholic doctrine is very much part of my daily environment, in my prayer and worship, in my teaching, research and publishing.”
 
I suppose there are some (besides yourself and Elizabeth) who interpret Genesis 1-3 literally, but I have not met or worked or worshiped with such.
It seems to be a game you play, intentionally or not, to attempt artificial divisions – categorically putting people in a corner to dismiss them. FYI, genuine scripture scholars do not speak of “literal” interpretations, because that term is meaningless as applied to literature, including sacred literature. (Church authorities may use the term to make distinctions to lay people on occasion, but they understand scripture the way other scholars understand Hebrew and Christian scriptures: as conveying meaning.) As with other literature, various images, phrases are used to carry and connect various meanings within chapters and within books. Jewish religion and culture considered numbers and units to have spiritual significance, with special import given to numbers like 3, 7, 12 and 40.

One doesn’t have to interpret, nor does the Catholic Church interpret, the sacred language of scripture in the kindergarten way you seem to ascribe to anyone who disagrees with your peer group. That was clear from the earlier postings I made – quoting Pius XII, quoting JP2, etc. Pope BXVI is a savvy scripture scholar with a similarly sophisticated view of scripture, shared by those of us who have studied these deeply in academia.

No one from my own peer group believes that the cosmos had a “firmament.” Yet that was the limited cosmological understanding of the early biblical writers. But we’re not talking about biblical scientific views here. That’s not – how often must this be repeated?–what the Church concerns herself with. It’s the spiritual messages and the spirtual truths --as opposed to physical facts – which is the mission of the Church to preserve, communicate, and interpret from scripture – in the context of all of Sacred Tradition, which goes far beyond Genesis. The doctrine about the human soul proceeds more than just from supposedly poetic statements in Genesis. One is allowed to believe one thing about some of the retellings of stories surrounding key Jewish figures, and unless such beliefs compromise Church doctrine on the metaphysics of human existence, variations in the details are less important than the spiritual truths they deliver.

There are not two artificial groups, created by you: the supposed Catholic intelligentsia, which dismisses Hebrew scriptures as largely fanciful because of their primitive scientific basis, vs. uneducated idiots who supposedly misinterpret the transparent symbolism in Hebrew scripture, substituting modern understandings for ancient semantics. There’s a vast educated Catholic population out there, over the age of 5, apparently none you’ve ever met, and several on this thread whose intelligence and education you refuse to acknowledge. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. We both analyze and synthesize, think and pray without conflict. Stop trying to attribute false beliefs to us just because we do not agree with a heterodox view that it was not God’s action that is responsible solely for a unquely human, non-evolved soul.
 
All of creation reflects the image of God in varying degrees. Homo sapiens represents the leading edge of emergent rationality and spiritual responsiveness, and therefore of the image of God. For at least forty thousand years humans have been burying their dead with provisions in expectation of an afterlife. This evinces the evolution of moral and spiritual awareness heretofore unseen in the animal world. Physically modern humans have existed for 200,000 years, and behaviorally modern humans for at least forty thousand years. From an evolutionary standpoint it would be difficult if not impossible to p(name removed by moderator)oint a single definable moment during these tens of thousands of years in which humans became endowed with "soul."It seems to have been a gradual and imperceptible development, a question to which a good deal of research is being dedicated in fields as diverse as theology, philosophy, anthropology, anatomy, genetics, neuroscience, and cognitive science.

StAnastasia
Gentle Readers,

Please accept my apology for this deviation from the truth of the Catholic Church.
 
And God is speaking through human discoveries about the world around us.
Human discoveries are incapable of validating or denying Catholic doctrine about the human soul.
The Church no longer opposes heliocentrism as it did in the days of Galileo
From Forum Rules:
Guidelines
For both Catholic and non-Catholic posters:
Bringing up historical controversies peculiar to a particular religion should be done cautiously
It is acceptable to discuss the effect the incident had on current policy or practice.
It is acceptable to seek the truth vs. commonly-held beliefs or conventional wisdom about actual events.
It is fallacious reasoning to use embarrassing incidents to claim that they “prove” a particular religion [or unrelated doctrine] is false.
Heliocentrism has zero to do with the Church’s doctrine on the human soul. There is no relationship. Straw man.
and the Church does not officially opposes the teaching of evolution.
But she does oppose the erroneous teaching, and the erroneous implication, that our souls evolved along with evolving physical bodies. I’ve posted those Church statements at least twice already on this thread.
 
What I meant is that Tonrey’s theory that the human race began with a single couple goes against everything biologists and geneticists know about human evolution. Convincing them that they should abandon what they know from science in favor of Tonrey’s single-couple theory will be a formidable task. For starters, he should move the theory from merely being discussed on a website to being discussed among professional scientists – in classrooms and laboratories, in major conferences and professional journals. Otherwise the theory will remain here.
  1. It is not my theory.
  2. It is a fundamental doctrine of Judaism, Islam and Christianity.
  3. What biologists and geneticists know about human evolution is irrelevant to what the vast majority of human beings know about the soul… 🙂
 
All of creation reflects the image of God in varying degrees. Homo sapiens represents the leading edge of emergent rationality and spiritual responsiveness, and therefore of the image of God. For at least forty thousand years humans have been burying their dead with provisions in expectation of an afterlife. This evinces the evolution of moral and spiritual awareness heretofore unseen in the animal world. Physically modern humans have existed for 200,000 years, and behaviorally modern humans for at least forty thousand years. From an evolutionary standpoint it would be difficult if not impossible to p(name removed by moderator)oint a single definable moment during these tens of thousands of years in which humans became endowed with “soul.” It seems to have been a gradual and imperceptible development, a question to which a good deal of research is being dedicated in fields as diverse as theology, philosophy, anthropology, anatomy, genetics, neuroscience, and cognitive science.

StAnastasia
Gentle Readers,

Please accept my apology for this deviation from the truth of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church faithfully teaches that a human person is more than “the leading edge of emergent rationality and spiritual responsiveness”. Being made in the image of God does not refer to evolution of many kinds of material anatomies over thousands of years. Being made in the image of God refers to the human ability to live eternally in ultimate happiness in the awesome presence of God, our Creator.

Science is wonderful. But science, by definition, does not interpret Divine Revelation.
Ignoring the limits of science is only one of the errors in the above. Chiefly, the above ignores God Himself by eliminating His role in the creation of human nature.

Yes, there are Catholics, clergy as well as ordinary folk, who deny the role of the Catholic Church while at the same time professing their belief in Catholicism. The pride of the first human still exists as individuals turn away from Catholic doctrines and waste precious time by searching for substitutes.
 
It doesn’t alter the fact that there was only one human couple at the outset
Your statement!
I was referring to the necessity of physical or biological monogenism, that is, one human couple who transmits the effects of Original Sin to all their descendants through propagation.
That doesn’t conflict with the belief that there was only one human couple at the outset. It is more reasonable than the hypothesis that thousands of our primitive ancestors simultaneously grasped the distinction between good and evil!
 
Science tells us nothing about the most important aspects of life, e.g. God, the soul, truth, goodness, freedom, justice, equality, beauty and love…
 
Two real, sole parents of the human species is known as monogenism.

In Catholic terminology, monogenism refers to the one source of the complete human nature which you and I have. Polygenism refers only to genetic sources for material anatomies. In regard to your complete human nature, polygenism skips God.

Monogenism insures the unity of humanity. Polygenism, as multiple sources, is part of the reasons for animal and plant diversity.

Monogenism insures that Christ hung bleeding on a cross for all people.

Monogenism vs. polygenism either recognizes the existence of God or denies the existence of God in our human life. In the Catholic faith, monogenism recognizes that God is not limited by the material world. This does not imply that somehow science is bad. Science must be respected for the good it has accomplished. What is implied is that science, itself, is limited to the material/physical creation. If one wants to understand one’s own human nature, one has to recognize that one’s nature is supernatural in that it unites both the material world and the spiritual world.

Just because science does not examine God under the proverbial microscope, that is no reason to eliminate God from the process of human creation. The fact that there are many people who do not believe in God has no power to eliminate God. God exists independently of people’s convictions.

The unanswered question is when did Adam, the first fully-complete human person, live. Because we do not have an exact date is no reason to eliminate the spiritual soul from human nature. One of the results of applying non-human animal principles (such as polygenism) to human beings is that the concept of a spiritual soul is thrown out.

Catholics believe in Divine Revelation protected by the Holy Spirit through the centuries. Our basic belief in the creative power of God is professed each Sunday when the community proclaims the Nicene Creed. This creed begins: “I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.”

Practically speaking, it is not really necessary to know exactly when Adam lived. It is extremely necessary to know his complete human nature. Because of Catholic monogenism, you and I are assured that we have his marvelous nature which enables us to share in God’s own life through knowledge and love.

Admittedly, it is very difficult to hold on to our faith in Jesus as God and Savior when we are bombarded with research about material anatomies of many different kinds of archaic beings.

Monogenism assures us that our material anatomy is the one with the spiritual soul because we descended from the singular person of Adam.
 
From an evolutionary standpoint it would be difficult if not impossible to p(name removed by moderator)oint a single definable moment during these tens of thousands of years in which humans became endowed with “soul.” It seems to have been a gradual and imperceptible development, a question to which a good deal of research is being dedicated in fields as diverse as theology, philosophy, anthropology, anatomy, genetics, neuroscience, and cognitive science.
  1. Was it a gradual and imperceptible development that a person grasped the distinction between good and evil for the first time?
  2. Are there intermediate stages between right and wrong or between just and unjust?
  3. Are **all **scientific discoveries gradual and imperceptible?
  4. Are all moments of intuition, inspiration and illumination illusions?
  5. Is the soul merely the product of biological events?
 
Admittedly, it is very difficult to hold on to our faith in Jesus as God and Savior when we are bombarded with research about material anatomies of many different kinds of archaic beings.
Not when we grasp the absurdity of the “biological machine” hypothesis! 🙂
 
From an evolutionary standpoint it would be difficult if not impossible to p(name removed by moderator)oint a single definable moment during these tens of thousands of years in which humans became endowed with “soul.” It seems to have been a gradual and imperceptible development
From several Popes, look it up (I’ve already posted it as well): Catholic doctrine on the soul is incompatible with the notion of evolving souls. You are describing gradual development, i.e., evolving, i.e., heterodoxy. But that is less interesting to me than the shift in your worldview (whether that evolved over time, or you have always maintained this), that theology is modified by science, and under science’s dominion. It is not. Not authentic Roman Catholic theology anyway. And I find it ironic that this is the exact opposite of the universally understood message of Genesis: that all of creation, including how creation “works” (however primitvely they misunderstood such workings), is dwarfed by the majesty and power of God, who contains human knowledge and authored the physical laws of the universe.
a question to which a good deal of research is being dedicated in fields as diverse as theology, philosophy, anthropology, anatomy, genetics, neuroscience, and cognitive science.
Perhaps other faith traditions rely on the natural, social, and biological sciences to determine or merely edit their theologies, but Catholicism does not.
 
  1. Was it a gradual and imperceptible development that a person grasped the distinction between good and evil for the first time?
  2. Are there intermediate stages between right and wrong or between just and unjust?
  3. Are **all **scientific discoveries gradual and imperceptible?
  4. Are all moments of intuition, inspiration and illumination illusions?
  5. Is the soul merely the product of biological events?
All these questions are answered yes when one misuses and misinterprets the empirical method.

The empirical method is* both* valid and essential when it comes to knowledge of earth and sky. The empirical method is the basis for beneficial discoveries in the field of health for both humans and animals.

Those who wish to water down the basic truths of Catholicism often, not always, manipulate scientific principles. The thinking person needs to ask herself or himself – what is the object being talked about. This means cutting through a lot of rhetoric in order to determine if the object is from the natural world meaning the material/physical domain of science or is the object from the spiritual world which refers ultimately to God.

Human life is sacred. Human nature, in itself, unites both the natural and the supernatural.
 
. But that is less interesting to me than the shift in your worldview (whether that evolved over time, or you have always maintained this), that theology is modified by science, and under science’s dominion.
Emphasis mine.

Worldview is important.

Worldview is basic to one’s life, even if there are a lot of people like myself who never read about worldview until landing in the middle of a CAF post as a result of Google. Being computer illiterate, I could not figure out how to exit so finally I registered as a member.👍

While not an expert in worldview positions, it is my observation that what is important is that at some point we need to look at the structure (worldview) which forms the basis for our decisions and actions. This is especially important when we are faced with “mountains” of evidence against Catholic doctrines regarding human origin, human nature, original sin, and ultimately against the divinity of Jesus Christ.

We need to ask ourselves – is our human life limited to the material/physical domain of scientific research? Is there a transcendent, pure spirit, personal God Who calls us to share in His life eternally? If there is more than five minutes available to answer these questions, then a person needs to examine in depth what is implicated in these questions.
 
It is an insult to the Catholic Church to refer to one of its basic doctrines as “granny’s pet theory.”
:rolleyes: It would be awesome if Catholic posters could actually agree on the Church’s doctrine in this area, but as long as they don’t the choice is either to pick one lay poster’s pet theory because they have the nicest sig. or look elsewhere for the doctrine. Having read a bit of Benedict’s theology, I go with the Pope on the grounds that he makes good sense and talks of a living scripture and a living God rather than hair-splitting ye olde documents, or relying on what some scientist wrote in her blog last week, and so on. You kind of know this from previous conversations, so I take it you were a bit fiery when you wrote that post. 🙂
 
Catholic doctrine on the soul is incompatible with the notion of evolving souls. You are describing gradual development, i.e., evolving, i.e., heterodoxy.
Not true - it is compatible.
But that is less interesting to me than the shift in your worldview (whether that evolved over time, or you have always maintained this), that theology is modified by science, and under science’s dominion.
Saint Thomas Aquinas would be the first to acknowledge that our interpretation of theology changes as our scientific world view changes. His articulation of theology – constructed in light of the Aristotelian philosophical corpus (recently rediscovered in the twelfth century – looked very different from the theologies articulated in previous centuries in light of Platonistic philosophy. Theology is not "under science’s dominion, as you suggest, but rather in dialogue with it.
It is not. Not authentic Roman Catholic theology anyway.
Not true.
And I find it ironic that this is the exact opposite of the universally understood message of Genesis: that all of creation, including how creation “works” (however primitvely they misunderstood such workings), is dwarfed by the majesty and power of God, who contains human knowledge and authored the physical laws of the universe.
Ah, but it is not the opposite at all. Read Archbishop Josef Zycinski’s God and Evolution (2006), in which he shows that what we know from physics and biology is incorporated into the divine reality!

StAnastasia
 
When there is a serious choice to be made, God does not require us to give up reason. That idea is on the silly side since the spiritual intellective tools of reason are God’s gifts to help us to reason. In other words, the human mind uses its tools of reason to make an informed choice.
Good we’re agreed. Now that obviously won’t last, never does, but it’s nice to touch base every so often (unless you disagree of course :D).
 
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