Science VS. Faith

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…In religion, one can claim whatever one wishes and be just as credible as the next person…
Sigh,

That is not the case in Catholicism. In Catholicism we have two thousand years of scripture, tradition and teaching; as well as a little less of the Magisterium.

You honestly think that you can ‘prove’ all of that wrong? Go on then- prove there is no God, that Jesus is not the Son of God and that all of that teaching is wrong.

You can believe what you like. You can say what you like. You can say that there’s a chocolate teapot orbiting the earth (bet that’s familiar?). But, guess what, no one else agrees, there’s nothing to support you, and you could be just another poor, deluded soul shouting the odds on some street corner.

I’m not disputing science - I practice science. Its an excellent and very valuable methodology. No argument there.

The other thing is - I don’t feel obligated to respond. I enjoy discussion. However, I like it go to somewhere and atm…its just same old, same old.

I think I understand - you don’t ‘like’ faith. Well now, there’s an easy solution to that one isn’t there?
 
Hi Fran65
That is not the case in Catholicism. In Catholicism we have two thousand years of scripture, tradition and teaching; as well as a little less of the Magisterium.

You honestly think that you can ‘prove’ all of that wrong? Go on then- prove there is no God, that Jesus is not the Son of God and that all of that teaching is wrong.
I think I understand - you don’t ‘like’ faith. Well now, there’s an easy solution to that one isn’t there?
What is the solution? For my part, I try to encourage people to employ the same standards of evidence for their religious beliefs as they normally apply to every other claim that they evaluate. Are your beliefs based on evidence?

Crowonsnow will not be able to prove that the Jesus is not the Son of God anymore than you can prove that faries or unicorns don’t exist? It’s not about beinbg able to prove your beliefs. It’s about having good reasons to believe. Why believe the claims about Christianity and not the ones about Islam or Juddaism or any other religion?

best,
Leela
 
“God” sounds like a concept then. Is that what god is to you?

For it to be true it must fit our observations. If what you are calling “god” cannot be observed, how can it be true? Now you’re saying “god” is a thing. Don’t you have to be more specific? “God” can be anything or any concept as you’ve described it, or rather not described it.

How would you show that “god” is more powerful than an electron?
The assumption made here is that God is under a requirement to be “observed” in a scientific way. However, science by its own definition is limited to what it can say about the universe.

So how can you subject God to such a limited test?
 
Hi Leela,

The fairies and unicorns belong with the chocolate teapot.

I’m not aware that your fairies and unicorns are supported by the scriptures, traditions and teachings that I referred to above.

My solution?

I don’t need one.

I am scientist, I also have Faith. (whisper - they actually are both faiths - one requires evidence, the other does not). If you don’t think science requires faith then you have not read enough about the competing theories and they way that science progresses.

I’m sorry if that does not satisfy you.

But now; well I’m bored. As I said, same old, same old.
 
Sigh,

That is not the case in Catholicism. In Catholicism we have two thousand years of scripture, tradition and teaching; as well as a little less of the Magisterium.

You honestly think that you can ‘prove’ all of that wrong? Go on then- prove there is no God, that Jesus is not the Son of God and that all of that teaching is wrong.

You can believe what you like. You can say what you like. You can say that there’s a chocolate teapot orbiting the earth (bet that’s familiar?). But, guess what, no one else agrees, there’s nothing to support you, and you could be just another poor, deluded soul shouting the odds on some street corner.

I’m not disputing science - I practice science. Its an excellent and very valuable methodology. No argument there.

The other thing is - I don’t feel obligated to respond. I enjoy discussion. However, I like it go to somewhere and atm…its just same old, same old.

I think I understand - you don’t ‘like’ faith. Well now, there’s an easy solution to that one isn’t there?
For the record, I love faith. I rather pity the shallowness of a life lived without faith, and consider myself a person of great faith. Religions and gods are are just not part of that faith.
 
For the record, I love faith. I rather pity the shallowness of a life lived without faith, and consider myself a person of great faith. Religions and gods are are just not part of that faith.
Now, that is interesting. What do have you faith in?
 
BTW, I’m sorry if I’ve come over as rude. I’m not usually like that.

I guess I allowed this discussion to irritate me!
 
The assumption made here is that God is under a requirement to be “observed” in a scientific way. However, science by its own definition is limited to what it can say about the universe.

So how can you subject God to such a limited test?
Your premise is that science is limited in what it can say about the universe. I’m not aware of any constraints on science and what it can say about the natural world, the universe.

What you mean to say, and what you omitted, is that your religion asserts that science is limited in what it can say about the universe. This is just a pope telling a scientist not to dig too deep.

The fact is I cannot pick up a cook book with a recipe for how to prepare heavenly angels in marinara sauce. Apparently angel is a dish beyond culinary expertise. So it’s not a strong or valid argument, this assertion that religion is beyond science, and therefore does not render any worthy or even interesting conclusions.
 
Now, that is interesting. What do have you faith in?
Well, the human future of course, that humanity can rise above petty differences, that we needn’t despair and long for armageddon, that a time will come when we realize we don’t need enemies to define our individual selves, when our superstitions will have given way to greater knowledge and our tolerance will have become acceptance, when as an entire race we will eschew supremacisms in all its forms…

Hey, a man can dream. But that’s another thread.

So I come here for acceptance, same as you. Same as all men, whether they realize it or not.
 
Your premise is that science is limited in what it can say about the universe. I’m not aware of any constraints on science and what it can say about the natural world, the universe.

What you mean to say, and what you omitted, is that your religion asserts that science is limited in what it can say about the universe. This is just a pope telling a scientist not to dig too deep.

The fact is I cannot pick up a cook book with a recipe for how to prepare heavenly angels in marinara sauce. Apparently angel is a dish beyond culinary expertise. So it’s not a strong or valid argument, this assertion that religion is beyond science, and therefore does not render any worthy or even interesting conclusions.
What can science say about additional dimensions? Are we flatlanders that cannot experience them?
 
What can science say about additional dimensions? Are we flatlanders that cannot experience them?
It would seem so presently but we really don’t know - yet. Perhaps CERN will help unravel our ignorance. More than likely, however, in doing that it will reveal more unanswered questions, which is a good thing. You’ve got to be fairly smart, after all, to realize just how profoundly stupid you truly are.

The dumber you get the smarter you’ve become, if you know what I mean.
 
Hi Fran,
Hi Leela,

The fairies and unicorns belong with the chocolate teapot.

I’m not aware that your fairies and unicorns are supported by the scriptures, traditions and teachings that I referred to above.
I think there are a lot of stories about fairies and unicorns? I’ve never heard of a chocolate tea pot but it may belong with the others as you say. Also Zues, Thor, Baal, etc? All other things that people claim to be true but are not supported by evidence?

The question I have is whether the Biblical God belongs with these. Is your belief in God based on evidence?
I am scientist, I also have Faith. (whisper - they actually are both faiths - one requires evidence, the other does not). If you don’t think science requires faith then you have not read enough about the competing theories and they way that science progresses.
QUOTE]

I don’t see how science requires faith? What is it about science that must be believed on insufficient evidence?

What can you add about competing theories? Isn’t a scientific theory either consistent with or contradicted by evidence? Doesn’t science progress as old theories are contradicted and new theories are developed to explain more of the data? I am not a scientist. What am I missing?

Best,
Leela
 
Hi CatsandDogs,

Everyone knows dogma exists? Who would say that dogma doesn’t exist? How else could we explain all the religious conflict in the world without dogma? Any scientifically minded person would know that people have beliefs that are not based on evidence. In fact, that is the problem. Are your beliefs based on evidence?
Do you know what true dogma is?

Catholic dogma, which is the only true dogma by the way, though others are more than happy to “appropriate” it, re-label it, and call it “their own”, is absolutely proven by personal experience after the appropriate procedure is done to do so.

So, yes, my beliefs are based entirely on evidence, although the procedure I used to get that evidence would not be followed by the “scientistic materialist” because it violates his “dogma”, which is that the hypothesis (the belief) is to be held as true until it is either proven true or not by that which is capable of proving it (being God Himself).
Most of your post is an attack on Scientism–a straw man. I agree that Scientism contradicts itself as a philosophy. I’ve also never met anyone who subscribes to this philosophy.
best,
Leela
🙂

Sure you have! But “scientistic materialism” is not a philosophy but a religion. We run into them here, as they are most vehement in their attempted evangelization, ALL the time!

If you consider what I’ve done a straw-man “attack”, simply ask me what it is that you want answered, and I’ll answer it.

Science is not at war with faith, and faith is not at war with science, but those who consider (usually unconsciously) faith a science or science a faith are most certainly at war with their self-proclaimed “opposite number”.

But science qua science is a subset of religion qua religion, and when anyone will not see that, from either direction, they will, of necessity, create a “war” out of perceived “insult” to their “intelligence”.

:shamrock2:
 
In science you cannot just claim to have the truth. In religion, one can claim whatever one wishes and be just as credible as the next person because in the end none of the fantastic claims can be verified.

And certainly don’t feel obligated to respond to my posts.
You must be thinking of some religion other than the Catholic religion! 🙂

No one who is Catholic can claim “whatever they wish” and be in the least credible.

Those who “believe in” science CLAIM things that they know are theories as “fact”, though it is true that REAL scientists know that those theories are only hypotheses which have seemingly been largely confirmed by supplemental evidence.

REAL scientists (who tend to be religious) know that “truth” is the sole realm of religion, and REAL religious people (who tend to be scientific as regards material things) know that “engineering” is the sole realm of science.

:shamrock2:
 
Do you know what true dogma is?

Catholic dogma, which is the only true dogma by the way, though others are more than happy to “appropriate” it, re-label it, and call it “their own”, is absolutely proven by personal experience after the appropriate procedure is done to do so.

So, yes, my beliefs are based entirely on evidence, although the procedure I used to get that evidence would not be followed by the “scientistic materialist” because it violates his “dogma”, which is that the hypothesis (the belief) is to be held as true until it is either proven true or not by that which is capable of proving it (being God Himself).
Hi CatsandDogs,

Is there any evidence that would convince you that any of Catholic dogma is false?

Best,
Leela
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
It’s not just A circular argument! It’s THE circular argument which happens to be correct, as all other circular arguments are un-useful or simply tautologically obvious!.

And you’re perfectly correct that “God” and “all-powerful”, “all-truth”, “all-good”, “is to be believed”, and “will show why He is to believed by faithfully believing in Him”, are all descriptions of exactly the same thing, which are only “separated” when it is convenient to illustrate what “God” means.

“God” sounds like a concept then. Is that what god is to you?
God is a truth (in fact THE truth, or truth it/Himself). That truth is to be axiomatically believed from which the consequent “effects” of that truth’s existence follow.

Many (if not most) people think that “God” (or to them “god”) is a product (generally of ignorance) instead of the fact that all products are products of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
But how do you explain HOW it is that XYZ “shows us” what XYZ shows us when XYZ is actually treated like XYZ?
Unless you DO treat XYZ like XYZ, then how can you know if that is true or not?
For it to be true it must fit our observations. If what you are calling “god” cannot be observed, how can it be true?
But God CAN be observed! Those of us who believe in God have been shown God by God, which of course is the only way that God is shown.

God can not be observed by, for example, you, because you won’t allow what needs to happen happen and therefore don’t get what you can’t get any other way.
Now you’re saying “god” is a thing. Don’t you have to be more specific? “God” can be anything or any concept as you’ve described it, or rather not described it.
How would you show that “god” is more powerful than an electron?
🙂

Can a (single) electron “power” an entity like the Catholic Church?

Once again, I gave you a very specific description of God. God is all-powerful, all-truth, and all-loving (all-good).

What do you find “non-specific” about that description?

:shamrock2:
 
Your premise is that science is limited in what it can say about the universe. I’m not aware of any constraints on science and what it can say about the natural world, the universe.
There are two “parts” to so-called science, which those who are religiously scientistic don’t want people to know about, as it dilutes their “moral superiority”.

The two parts are:
  • knowledge of the universe
  • engineering based on the aforesaid knowledge
Scientific knowledge is not limited as to what it can discover, other than by the energy requirements implied in what it is that one is “looking for”…

…but the engineering capable of being done with “science” must be limited, as what is POSSIBLE to do is not necessarily what is GOOD to do.

The role of “governor” of science is with the Church, meaning with those who understand that science is contained and moderated by true religion.

When “science” will not be governed by (true) religion (aka morality) it makes itself a religion, and will inevitably act contrary to true morality (as it’s not “plugged into” the source of that truth) and promulgate (usually) massive evil which it won’t see as evil-doing until it’s much too late.
What you mean to say, and what you omitted, is that your religion asserts that science is limited in what it can say about the universe. This is just a pope telling a scientist not to dig too deep.
Science needs to “dig” as deeply as possible, which is what the Church wants it to do, because the deeper an understanding of the universe we have the more understanding we’ll have as to why God created it as He did for us to live in and use,…

…but what “science” tries to DO with that science/knowledge MAY not be a good use of that science!

(Big) Science, like all other “temporal powers”, is free to govern it’s “territory” as it wishes, but when it fails to see itself as what it is and thinks itself “unbound” in it’s actions, not accountable even to God, then it becomes yet another satanic tyrant.
The fact is I cannot pick up a cook book with a recipe for how to prepare heavenly angels in marinara sauce. Apparently angel is a dish beyond culinary expertise.
Can you make gluon-stew?

How about anti-proton souffle?

Angels are quite real, as are demons. Those who don’t understand what “God” means aren’t capable of seeing how they are dragged about by those demons, and freed by those angels, toward/from the “hell” of holding onto those things one shouldn’t hold onto which create evil-doing.
So it’s not a strong or valid argument, this assertion that religion is beyond science, and therefore does not render any worthy or even interesting conclusions.
Religion is the ONLY thing that renders worthy and interesting MORAL conclusions. Science is the ONLY thing that renders effective and useful ENGINEERABLE conclusions

You fail to see what the essence of the respective realms of science and religion are.

Religion is about morality. Science is about everything BUT morality.

Science SEEMS to get MUCH the better of the deal, as it’s “realm” is apparently much greater, and sometimes, in those who take that “larger realm” to mean inherently more importance, the so-called “scientists” (religiously scientistic materialists as opposed to true scientists) are “persuaded” to a massive hubris which claims that all things not “governed by science” are fancifully nonexistent.

Do you have more of a correct understanding of the respective roles of true science and true religion now, and how either impinging on the other is a bad thing?

:shamrock2:
 
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