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inJESUS
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inJESUS
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inJESUS
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Freedom, am still looking for answers to my questions about original sin…as you’ve seen, i did not quote Biblical verses, so try not to quote quran as well and lets have a rational conversation.
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jimmy
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Ishmael's child:
The idea that it would be an error to put a bat in the same class with birds is an error that is founded upon modern classifications. It is not an error for the Hebrews to classify things differently than modern science. Same goes with the insects.
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freedomm
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Dear inJESUS:
If you stand to reason with your unusual premise that since Jesus was born without a father, thus his birth is unique, then with this same premise/logic/reasoning/yard-stick, Prophet Adam (PBUH)'s creation for the first time in whole Universe is the most miraculous phenomenon, of which even Angels did not have any idea as to the precise nature of a totally new creature prior to man’s creation who was going to be apoointed as God’s caliph/Khaleefah on Earth and as the most honoured creature in whole creation - i.e.,Ashraful-Makhlooqat
But here a very important thing you completely forgot, and that is: in this whole Universe each and every and all things, from a tiniest particle of matter to unimaginable ever exapnding universe, are various unique miracles of God.
When we see things happening everyday, as usual, as per the Law set by the Creator (God), we unknowingly assume or think that it is not a unique miracle. But, by God, every phenomenon and thing is unique miracle because it is not we who created this universe. We are among God’s creatures.
Then we see beauty, order and design in the nature/whole Universe, which makes us believe that there is indeed God. Are you unknowingly suggesting that all these miracles which are due to God, are not unique simply because you see them often?
Just think about your ownself. How you came into being form the state of nothing. Where you were prior to your birth? How you were kept in mothers’s womb for a certain period of time? Do you really think it is not a miracle of God simply because almost every child is born this way?
Miracles that you are interested are basically a test for unbelievers and not for godly people. Godly people don’t ask/demand for miracles. They recognise the Godliness of Prophets of God in their sinless Personalities, Charecters, Messages and applications.
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freedomm
Guest
Dear inJESUS:
This is a very easy question if you only keep in mind the evil attitude of Jesus’ nation - children of Israel. Look their past behaviour too when they voilated the God’s covenent and transgressed. They used to kill thier own Prophets. Their Prophets did not have to claim any divinity to get killed, but just calling them to follow *the Law * properly is more than enough “crime” to get killed.
If Jesus’ miraculous birth was known to all Jews of his nation, then why did most Jews reject him? Was he a gentile? He was among them and born to a noblest lineage. Then right after birth Allah made him to perform other miracles too.
But the question is, why there was a need at all for miracles, anyway?
Basically miracle is LAST RESORT to convince most rebeliious people and not the first option, otherwise it defeats the purpose of man’s test/trial on this Earth because Man is given free choice to pick right or wrong.
If God had Willed to make all people of this earth “Christians”, He could have done that without appointing His Prophets and putting their sinless innocent lives in dangeour and unecessary burden and hardship. But the real Whole Plan of God is not knowable. What is known is through His Prophets (PBUT) only and it is: we are being tested based on free choice that He gave us.
Considering the most rebellious and evil attitude of many sections of Jesus’ nation, his birth was like Itmam al-Hujjah (i.e, unveiling the truth to the extent that no one has an excuse to deny it) so that they return back to follow **the Torah and the Prophets ** in their entirety and stop being hypocrites and blind guides ( ignorants–Juhalaa’ ).
Even if you take into consideration the reported words uttered by Jesus in the Gospels (especially of “Saint” Matthew) then it must make you think, why did Jesus used very harsh words that do not seem to suit with his ‘peaceful’ personality, such as:
hypocrites
- blind guides
- Blind fools
- You blind ones
- full of plunder
- self-indulged
- full of dead men’s bones
- every kind of filth
- evildoers.
- the children of those who murdered the prophets
- serpents
- brood of vipers
What for?
Because they said to Jesus: **If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets’ blood.’ **
Then what Jesus told them?
He said to them “Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets; now fill up what your ancestors measured out! You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna?”. … "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate."
Now even after all this sayings and harsh warnings, and classic woes, did they accept him as their Messiah? Did they account/consider any of his miracles?
If you say, Jesus’ birth without father is a most miraculous one, then question arises how can a sincere person verify it? Becuase you don’t even accept the Quranic declaration of him speaking while he was an infant. What other firm evidence can convince a non-Christian truth seeker about his birth without father?
IF you say, since Jesus performed other miracles too, thus you have to just beleive that he was born that way. Then the question is: is that the reason Joseph was considered his father by the people that even Luke (3:23) tells you that "When Jesus began his ministry he was about thirty years of age. He was the son, as was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,."?
Amazingly even at the age of 30, Jesus was still supposed and thought by his people, as a son of Joseph and not of God.
Then during three years of his ministry, he performed many miracles. Did he do it from himself or it was God did by him?
Ofcourse all his signs, wonders and miracles were done by God thru him (but not by Jesus himself because he was not the God (the father) as Peter publically testified.
But all this was to prove what? To make his disciples more faithfull to him? Or to convince that evil and adultrous generation?
But even after all that …
cont…
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freedomm
Guest
Dear inJESUS:
But even after all that happened the most learned and high ranking people --the scribes and the Pharisees–still asked him: “Master we would see a sign from thee” Jesus replied: "An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. For as Jonas was in the whale’s belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights."
This was the only considerable sign he was prepared to show them. He did not say to them don’t you see how I was born without earthly father and don’t you see how I healed the sick or don’t you see how I cast out devils?
The clear answer to your question is Jesus’ birth without father was to leave no room for Jews to reject the teachings of their an another national Prophet to children of Israel hence Propohet Jesus (PBUH) was sent only to the lost sheep of house of Israel.
Jesus’ birth, his miracles and his strong condemnation leaves no room for Jews to make an excuse that they were not guided by God for a long period of time. The main mission of Jesus was not to die for anyone especially not on the Cross nor to hang on the tree by going against the Torah (Deut.21:23).
But amazingly Sual (Paul) thinks that Jesus was hanged on a tree instead of crucified on the Cross. Probably while Jesus’ “crucifixion” drama was taking place, Saul was too busy in persecuting Jesus’ genuine followers and he was “kicking against the pricks”.
The actual mission of Jesus was make people follow **the Will of God ** (Islam) becasue he was a man and a Muslim.
Now consider the following very carefully:
But even after all that happened the most learned and high ranking people --the scribes and the Pharisees–still asked him: “Master we would see a sign from thee” Jesus replied: "An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. For as Jonas was in the whale’s belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights."
This was the only considerable sign he was prepared to show them. He did not say to them don’t you see how I was born without earthly father and don’t you see how I healed the sick or don’t you see how I cast out devils?
The clear answer to your question is Jesus’ birth without father was to leave no room for Jews to reject the teachings of their an another national Prophet to children of Israel hence Propohet Jesus (PBUH) was sent only to the lost sheep of house of Israel.
Jesus’ birth, his miracles and his strong condemnation leaves no room for Jews to make an excuse that they were not guided by God for a long period of time. The main mission of Jesus was not to die for anyone especially not on the Cross nor to hang on the tree by going against the Torah (Deut.21:23).
But amazingly Sual (Paul) thinks that Jesus was hanged on a tree instead of crucified on the Cross. Probably while Jesus’ “crucifixion” drama was taking place, Saul was too busy in persecuting Jesus’ genuine followers and he was “kicking against the pricks”.
The actual mission of Jesus was make people follow **the Will of God ** (Islam) becasue he was a man and a Muslim.
Now consider the following very carefully:
Matthew 12:46-50
The New American Bible
46 32 While he was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and his brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with him.
47 **(Someone told him, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you.”) ** 33
48 But he said in reply to the one who told him, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?"
49 **And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. **
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.
It is this the will of Father (God) actual miracle of Prophet Jesus (PBUH) and Will of God means Islam. Thus he was a Muslim (Muslim means the one who follow the Will of God (Islam).
Footnotes:
32 [46-50] See Mark 3:31-35 . Matthew has omitted Mark 3:20-21 which is taken up in Mark 3:31 (see the note on Matthew 12:22-32 , yet the point of the story is the same in both gospels: natural kinship with Jesus counts for nothing; only one who does the will of his heavenly Father belongs to his true family.
33 [47] This verse is omitted in some important textual witnesses, including Codex Sinaiticus (original reading) and Codex Vaticanus.
usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew12.htm#foot33
The New American Bible
46 32 While he was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and his brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with him.
47 **(Someone told him, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you.”) ** 33
48 But he said in reply to the one who told him, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?"
49 **And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. **
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.
It is this the will of Father (God) actual miracle of Prophet Jesus (PBUH) and Will of God means Islam. Thus he was a Muslim (Muslim means the one who follow the Will of God (Islam).
Footnotes:
32 [46-50] See Mark 3:31-35 . Matthew has omitted Mark 3:20-21 which is taken up in Mark 3:31 (see the note on Matthew 12:22-32 , yet the point of the story is the same in both gospels: natural kinship with Jesus counts for nothing; only one who does the will of his heavenly Father belongs to his true family.
33 [47] This verse is omitted in some important textual witnesses, including Codex Sinaiticus (original reading) and Codex Vaticanus.
usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew12.htm#foot33
You have to pay attention to the main essence of Jesus’ mission-his Message-- rather than over-emphasing his personality then over-praising him. But first you have to get rid of Saul (Paul) completely then concentrate on words uttered by Jesus, even in your unreliable synoptics and John’s gospel, where still you will find some traces of truth taught by Jesus, that eventually lwill ead you to look for **‘The Spirit of Truth’ ** who was supposed to teach you **‘all the Truth’ **
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inJESUS
Guest
Absolutely irrelevant.
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inJESUS
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Absolutely irrelevant.
Ps: the Spirit of truth thing have been debunked badly unless you want me to open a whole thread for it to prove how ridiculous this claim is.
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inJESUS
Guest
Irrelevant.
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inJESUS
Guest
here it is again:
i am **NOT ** talking about **WHY ** it is miraculous or unique…am asking about its MEANING. Since everything God makes has a meaning/purpose, what is the purpose for Jesus to be born without an earthly father. Because Allah wants so in an unacceptable answer cuz it shows that allah works without purpose.
i am **NOT ** talking about **WHY ** it is miraculous or unique…am asking about its MEANING. Since everything God makes has a meaning/purpose, what is the purpose for Jesus to be born without an earthly father. Because Allah wants so in an unacceptable answer cuz it shows that allah works without purpose.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Exactly - the Assyrians grouped lions as dogs: so the authors of the Biblical books were working within the limits of their own knowledge, just as everyone else had to. It makes no sense to blame them for not adopting Linnaean classifications of animals - how would the Bible have been comprehensible in the generations before Linnaeus ?
Besides, expecting the Bible to be an eternally final and eternally up-to-date in its biology, maths, physics, geology, psychology, helminthology, cytology, metrology, and all other “-ologies” in creation, would not only make it dumb to every generation except the very last (perhaps) - to expect or demand of the Bible that kind of accuracy, would make it into a monstrosity, by making it impossible to write: each generation is apt to forget that its learning about the world is always unfinished, never final, never beyond further refinement & correction. No generation can ever claim to know all that can be known on any single subject. So the “ideal Bible” that some seem to look for, is an impossibility.If it is going to be of use in salvation, it must be composed while men are still fallible - there would be point in waiting for all the redeemed to be gathered in: they have no need of a Bible: they have the Subject of the Bible, as He really is. The Bible is a means to knowing Him - they have Him, so do not need it any more. ##
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freedomm
Guest
To all Catholics:
Would you please help me finding these verses in your **Douay Rheims Bible ** at Catholic Encyclopedia site:
Would you please help me finding these verses in your **Douay Rheims Bible ** at Catholic Encyclopedia site:
Job 25:4-6
I did not find these in the Holy Bible at: newadvent.org/bible/
Once you find please provide exact link. Remember I am looking these verses in the Douay Rheims Bible of Catholic Encyclopedia
4 Can man be justified compared with God, or he that is born of a woman appear clean?
5 Behold even the moon doth not shine, and the stars are not pure in his sight.
6 **How much less man that is rottenness and the son of man who is a worm? **
5 Behold even the moon doth not shine, and the stars are not pure in his sight.
6 **How much less man that is rottenness and the son of man who is a worm? **
I did not find these in the Holy Bible at: newadvent.org/bible/
Once you find please provide exact link. Remember I am looking these verses in the Douay Rheims Bible of Catholic Encyclopedia
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freedomm
Guest
4 فكيف يتبرر الانسان عند الله وكيف يزكو مولود المرأة.
5 هوذا نفس القمر لا يضيء والكواكب غير نقية في عينيه.
6 فكم بالحري الانسان الرمّة وابن آدم الدود
5 هوذا نفس القمر لا يضيء والكواكب غير نقية في عينيه.
6 فكم بالحري الانسان الرمّة وابن آدم الدود
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inJESUS
Guest
you find it here :
nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/job/job25.htm
in the site you gave there is a mistake…chapters 24 and 25 are repeated the same…
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JGravel
Guest
Ishmael's child:
To say one light source is not as bright is fine. Why would the bible have to explain in detail "the cause of this dimmer light is due to the earth’s rotation and the position of the sun which shines on the moon reflecting its light down to earth… Don’t worry, it’s not hot…?
The Bible does not explain the temperture of these light sources. Like in previous posts, you have to consider the times when it was written, and the capability of man to understand it.The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars
Today we know that they sun is a massive fireball which provides the earth with light and heat… not to mention is a requirement for life on Earth. The moon on the other hand is just another chunk of dirt and rock that floats in space, it just happens to revolve around our little planet. It does effect some things here on Earth, like the tide. The only reason we see it every night is because it reflects light from the sun.
The Bible doesn’t always reflect the truth about the sun and moon.
In Genesis 1:16 says “And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.” According to this, the moon is a light source just like the sun, only not as bright. If this was the case, we couldn’t land on the moon, it would be too hot. It is also strange that it took God the day to make the sun and the moon, but the stars are portrayed as an afterthought of sorts. “He made the stars also”, this is a definite sign that the Bible is inspired by man. It is clear that man could not have perceived that the stars were the same as the sun, but in most cases much larger. Naturally they thought that these specks were just thrown about. The verse should read “God created the stars and planetary objects, he also made the earth, sun, and moon”. But man, in those days, would have never seen it that way.
Isaiah 13:10 also says that the moon is a source of light. “moon shall not cause her light to shine.” Again this is another example of the Bible seeming to be inspired by man and limited to his own perception.
To say one light source is not as bright is fine. Why would the bible have to explain in detail "the cause of this dimmer light is due to the earth’s rotation and the position of the sun which shines on the moon reflecting its light down to earth… Don’t worry, it’s not hot…?
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JGravel
Guest
Wow,
Anyone following the inJESUS / freedom discussion.
(How can you not, right) Seems to me that it’s going around and around and around.
freedom, dude, your long winded. Have you ever heard of the term KISS in writing classes? It means “keep it simple stupid”.
I am not calling you stupid either! You seem to be a very intelligent person with great faith. In fact I am learning alot about your faith, (thank you)
But I must say, This discussion is making me more aware of how much… I LOVE Jesus Christ, My Lord, my Savior, my Redeemer.
Hey inJESUS -
Anyone following the inJESUS / freedom discussion.
(How can you not, right) Seems to me that it’s going around and around and around.
freedom, dude, your long winded. Have you ever heard of the term KISS in writing classes? It means “keep it simple stupid”.
I am not calling you stupid either! You seem to be a very intelligent person with great faith. In fact I am learning alot about your faith, (thank you)
But I must say, This discussion is making me more aware of how much… I LOVE Jesus Christ, My Lord, my Savior, my Redeemer.Hey inJESUS -
K
Kitty_Chan
Guest
Getting Back to the original Question
It seems to be missed that this question has been answered very nicely (good work discipleofJesus)
And I may add that this DOES NOT show scientific errors in the Bible. What about germs?? They were not “discovered” until if memory serves me around the Civil War in the US but there was a principle of protecting one from them back in the OT. There was more to all the mention of being “clean” and sitting outside the camp gates for 7 days which gets missed by most. Hint how long does a sickness take to develop or go away, maybe 7 days?
To say there is no science in the Bible is absurd. God did invent it so it does make its way into the Bibles pages. Certainly the most important is our hearts and how we treat one another. But science wasnt forgotton.
It seems to be missed that this question has been answered very nicely (good work discipleofJesus)
And I may add that this DOES NOT show scientific errors in the Bible. What about germs?? They were not “discovered” until if memory serves me around the Civil War in the US but there was a principle of protecting one from them back in the OT. There was more to all the mention of being “clean” and sitting outside the camp gates for 7 days which gets missed by most. Hint how long does a sickness take to develop or go away, maybe 7 days?
To say there is no science in the Bible is absurd. God did invent it so it does make its way into the Bibles pages. Certainly the most important is our hearts and how we treat one another. But science wasnt forgotton.
K
Kitty_Chan
Guest
Also about people from Bible times not understanding, it would only be because of lack of relative experience. Try to explain to someone a plane if there is no relative experience to draw on.
Try to explain to someone a ride at Disneyland compared to one at a Fair you cannot. Thats why Daniel and Revelations are so strange, they had glimpses from the Lord of stuff there was no words for.
Same as us trying to understand things of those days, there is no relative experience. Thats why they pick through ruins etc to try to understand what was.
I may call them sneakers, or maybe runners, or perhaps nikies, but it all means the same thing. Rubber souled shoes on my feet.
Try to explain to someone a ride at Disneyland compared to one at a Fair you cannot. Thats why Daniel and Revelations are so strange, they had glimpses from the Lord of stuff there was no words for.
Same as us trying to understand things of those days, there is no relative experience. Thats why they pick through ruins etc to try to understand what was.
I may call them sneakers, or maybe runners, or perhaps nikies, but it all means the same thing. Rubber souled shoes on my feet.
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