Scientists make human embryo clones

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Yahoo News posted this: news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080117/ap_on_sc/cloned_embryos_2;_ylt=Au4y.EueAoGMZNfixBL1kCQE1vAI

This sort of relates to this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=211222

Now let us peer years into the future when cloing works and you get a full functional human being who is an exact duplicate of another person.

Does the clone have a soul or any legal rights? I don’t know if this has been answered or not, but consider this – if the answer is no, then the clone is the equivalent of beef cattle with no rights. In theory, you could shoot a clone dead in the streets and suffer no serious consequences. Is that moral??

I don’t know the answer, and I guess it will take a lot of praying and seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit until the answer is revealed. But, what do you think?
 
First of all, the clone would be a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT individual shaped by experience, development ect. It is totally impossible to mimic all the synaptic connections and memories of two different people.

Second, the conservatives have so strongly opposed FEDERAL funds for ESCR, so the PRIVATE companies are out doing it themselves. You cant have it both ways. You arent forced to pay for it, but private companies are doing it.

I have said many many many times that we are ONE Nobel Prize away from the cloning and ESC Revolution. All it is going to take is one Jonas Salk to open the doorway to limitless possibilities. Once that happens, it will be impossible to stop. Impossible in every sense of the word. Even if the US bans human cloning, the KNOWLEDGE gained from it will be used on non-cloned embryos. Just as the scientists with the skin cell technique used KNOWLEDGE gained from PURE ESC research before them. Without all that prior ESCR, they would have never been able to come up with their supposedly ethical technique. So in essence, their technique too is tainted.

And it is impossible to stop US scientists from traveling out of the country to perform human cloning. All the best and brightest scientists are always one plane ticket away from the UK or Australia. The government cannot prevent its citizens from doing things illegal in the US in another country.

In a few years, there will be immense strides made, and it probably cant be stopped unless you make it illegal to use ALL knowledge EVER obtained from ESCR, period. Aint gonna happen, EVER.
 
joelacour said:
Yahoo News posted this: news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080117/ap_on_sc/cloned_embryos_2;_ylt=Au4y.EueAoGMZNfixBL1kCQE1vAI

This sort of relates to this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=211222

Now let us peer years into the future when cloing works and you get a full functional human being who is an exact duplicate of another person.

Does the clone have a soul or any legal rights? I don’t know if this has been answered or not, but consider this – if the answer is no, then the clone is the equivalent of beef cattle with no rights. In theory, you could shoot a clone dead in the streets and suffer no serious consequences. Is that moral??

I don’t know the answer, and I guess it will take a lot of praying and seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit until the answer is revealed. But, what do you think?
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Are there are two types, or intents/purposes, of human cloning. Reproductive cloning currently has the most opposition. It is illegal in the UK and Australia, as well as other places. The European Union also seems to be opposed to it, but I don’t think it is legally binding at the moment.

The kind under discussion here is therapeutic cloning. It is, essentially, creating a new human being solely for the purposes of harvesting (killing them) their cells for regenerative medicinal purposes. This is quite popular in many areas and legal in Australia. I’m not sure about the UK.

I think both forms are immoral. One deviates from God’s natural design for procreation and the other commits mass murder. How can either be acceptable? However, a human being created via cloning is entitled to full human rights. I think they have a soul.

I think we have to bear in mind that a clone is still fully human. After all, they’re a copy of the original human. There’d be no substantial difference from a human conceived by cloning and a human conceived by natural sexual reproduction.

As for stopping it, of course it can be stopped. You have to have popular support for an international ban. At the moment, that doesn’t seem likely. However, with God’s help, we could achieve it.
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
I think we have to bear in mind that a clone is still fully human. After all, they’re a copy of the original human. There’d be no substantial difference from a human conceived by cloning and a human conceived by natural sexual reproduction.
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Except the soul? Or would a cloned being have the same soul, and same genetic makeup as their sponsor? Either way, i can imagine this would really tick God off to no end, and is definitely not a good idea.
 
revelations said:
Except the soul? Or would a cloned being have the same soul, and same genetic makeup as their sponsor? Either way, i can imagine this would really tick God off to no end, and is definitely not a good idea.
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I meant there’d be no substantial difference from a biological perspective. Just like identical twins have separate souls, I believe a clone would have a soul separate from its…what would the original be called? Parent? Sibling? But yes, I think cloning a human being would be a great sin, violating God’s design for the human species. That doesn’t mean the individual created by that process is a sin or that God doesn’t love them.
 
revelations said:
Except the soul? Or would a cloned being have the same soul, and same genetic makeup as their sponsor? Either way, i can imagine this would really tick God off to no end, and is definitely not a good idea.
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I saw this on the news tonight, and was wondering the same thing (if the embryo’s had souls). In a way I would think that they do, since they are life, but on the other hand - they weren’t created by God. But still it was a life and from what they said on the news, they destroyed them before any further testing could be done - or implanted. What a shame that science has come to this - I can also imagine that God is none too pleased. It’s just an abomination. 😦
 
MSParrott said:
I saw this on the news tonight, and was wondering the same thing (if the embryo’s had souls). In a way I would think that they do, since they are life, but on the other hand - they weren’t created by God.
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I am not sure that is the best way to view it. These embryos weren’t created out of nothing. A clone wouldn’t be created out of nothing. All man’s contribution to this “creation” would be is a violation of the natural design of God, but it doesn’t create anything new. I believe that is a grave sin, of course, I am not arguing against that. But I see no reason to conclude these new human persons wouldn’t have souls.
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
I am not sure that is the best way to view it. These embryos weren’t created out of nothing. A clone wouldn’t be created out of nothing. All man’s contribution to this “creation” would be is a violation of the natural design of God, but it doesn’t create anything new. I believe that is a grave sin, of course, I am not arguing against that. But I see no reason to conclude these new human persons wouldn’t have souls.
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Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that. (maybe I need more coffee) :o I guess my mind just can’t wrap itself around this whole thing and I don’t know what to think. One thing I do know is I think it’s horrible that these people are trying to play God.
 
MSParrott said:
One thing I do know is I think it’s horrible that these people are trying to play God.
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I agree. I think many scientists have tasted the power science can give and they want more. Like building the Tower of Babel or partaking of the forbidden fruit, men seem very much inclined to try and take God’s place. Kind of like adolescents trying to convince themselves they no longer need their parents.
 
The sin that started it all was striving to be like God…eat the forbidden fruit and you will become God-like and all knowing yourself…what a sham that turned out to be.

This can’t be much better…
 
I really agree with you guys, & I’m surprised more people aren’t concerned & discussing this. Of course I’m not certain about these poor embryos having souls, but I’m pretty sure ChristIsTheWay is correct. Much like in vitro, these embryos weren’t fashioned in the way God intended, but being a new, distinct human life I’m sure God blesses them with a soul.

Therapeuitic & reproductive cloning are exactly the same thing, except in therapeutic cloning the scientists destroy the embryos before they can be implanted & develop. They are harvested for their “spare parts”. All the journalists & scientists discussing this on TV right now keep talking about the fact that almost no one thinks it’s ethical to allow clones to become adults. They seem to think it’s somehow ethical to harvest the embryos just to kill them.

It’s true that if say Oprah or Martha Stewart had themselves cloned, they would not somehow be another Oprah or Martha. The clones would simply be their identical twins born years later. They just share the same genetic material.

In fact, you guys probably heard that the owner of this CA lab clowned an embryo using his own DNA. He made his own twin. He said it was “amazing” to look at under the microscope. I agree it’s amazing, alright. He was amazed, right before he destroyed his own twin. These are the smart scientists we’re all supposed to trust to do the ethical thing?!!
 
Hmmm if the clones are ‘empty’ of a soul would a demon be able to enter and take up residence?
 
Possibly, but I think most people believe that God will bless the embryo with a soul because it is a new human life. All embryos have souls. Besides, the scientists are going to destroy these embryos before they ever get a chance to be implanted. The demons are happy enough about that…
 
mmm1 said:
Possibly, but I think most people believe that God will bless the embryo with a soul because it is a new human life. All embryos have souls. Besides, the scientists are going to destroy these embryos before they ever get a chance to be implanted. The demons are happy enough about that…
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I think we should perhaps be more concerned about the souls

of the scientists…

God bless,
Mimi
 
Just to clarify the goal of the research: The scientists in the article are trying to develop a stem-cell line, not to clone a human being. An immortalized stem-cell line would allow all future stem-cell research to be performed. These cells would have the DNA of the original donor(s) and would have the capability of differentiating into various cells and tissues (e.g., osteoblasts [bone], endothelial cells [vasculature], neurons [nervous system], adipocytes [fat], etc.) but would not be able to form entire beings.

This is not too far removed from cell types and cell lines that exist already: For example, innumerable primary cell types have been isolated from humans, such as the NHOst osteoblasts, which come from human bone, or the HMVEC cells, which come from human microvascular endothelium. However, these cells are terminally differentiated, and thus have finite life spans.

Other cell lines have been expanded from various cancers. The most famous example is probably the HeLa cell line, which is an immortalized cell line from the cervical cancer cells of Henrietta Lacks, who died of the disease in 1951. To this day, researchers who use HeLa cells are using the genetically identical progeny of Ms. Lacks’ own cells.

These cells, and others, are all commercially available and widely used.

But there is a big difference between these human cell lines and a stem-cell line, as proposed… and this difference is twofold: First, the cells described above (NHost, HMVEC, HeLa, etc.) are already differentiated, whereas stem cells would have the capacity to differentiate into other cell types. Second, the method the scientists in the article are using to try to create an immortalized stem-cell line involves the transplantation of donor DNA into an egg in order to create an embryo that is, in essence, a little bioreactor for cell multiplication.

That’s where I think the biggest moral hangup lies. Why do things this way? There exist alternate methods to procure human stem cells – such as from processed lipoaspirate (fat) from adult patients. Stem cells procured in this fashion have finite life spans, so research requires a continual replenishment of the cells from fresh lipoaspirate. But it is conceivable that stem cells could be immortalized (i.e., transformed to multiply forever) and retain the “stemmness” while also not losing the capacity for “multipotency,” or the ability to differentiate into different cell types. Most importantly, this method of adult-derived stem-cell research does not involve fetuses or newborn babies or artificially created embryos. Nor does it even hint at the ability to clone an entire human being. But it does allow for research in tissue engineering and regenerative medicine.

While I can understand the scientists’ intentions, I disagree with their methods. Scientific progress is entirely possible within the sphere of Catholic moral theology and philosophy.
 
alessandro said:
Just to clarify the goal of the research: The scientists in the article are trying to develop a stem-cell line, not to clone a human being.
Code: 
 ---- Hi, Dr. Alessandro.  Thanks for all of the information.  I just have to disagree with you on 1 or 2 points, though.  I understand that their ultimate goal does seem to be to obtain a ready supply of embryonic stem cells,  but they definitely did try to clone a human being.  Reports are that they were supposedly successful.   Rather  than reproductive cloning, they seem to be developing therapeutic cloning to eventually make new embryonic stem cell lines.  I agree with you that their efforts would be more successful AND ethical if they concentrated on non-embryonic stem cells.---
While I can understand the scientists’ intentions, I disagree with their methods. Scientific progress is entirely possible within the sphere of Catholic moral theology and philosophy.
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Also, I just wanted to thank you for providing the link to your website. It is really amazing! It is so thorough & informative. I was impressed with the information on preparing for lent, & found the section on forming good habits to be particularly helpful. Thanks again!
 
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