Scipture and Papal Authority

[jcrichton]

On this we may well agree. I believe in all of the scriptures and I believe in the relevancy of tradition (thus am more inclined toward the High Anglican Protestant Church) than many Protestants and, with candor, find that element of the Catholic faith very attractive. However, I didn’t follow how this reply related to the question of whether the reference to the “Rock” was Peter or Christ (or the confession of Christ) nor to the fact that the Catechism appears to intepret this verse as referring to the confession of faith.

Blessings,

Brian

Hi, Brian!

It’s been my experience that the argument against the primacy of Peter blinds non-Catholics when they are faced with the Holy Scriptures… they seem to want to contort Jesus’ Word to mean anything but what Jesus is saying. Even suggesting that Jesus, for no apparent reason, renames Simon Kephas/Cephas only to then tell him that “I am the Rock on which I will build my Church,” does not seem cartoonish to them–they rather believe anything but what the Word is telling them.

Since I am not one of the Bishops in charge of defining the Catholic Faith/Doctrine, I cannot tell you the exact reason why the Catechism of the Catholic Church made such distinctive acclamation… still, my understanding of the definition is that the Church sought to clarify that Jesus’ institution of Peter was not just of the man but of the office, hence the Church does not end at Peter’s or the other Apostles’ death. The succession of the Apostles was instituted by Christ as He states that nothing will prevail against His Church!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Robbinson]

“Now, therefore,
we declare, say, determine and pronounce
that for every human creature
it is necessary for salvation
to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff.”
~ Pope Boniface VIII
This position of exclusivity regarding the road to salvation (vesting it exclusively in the Church under the authority of the Pope) is a very troublesome verse for Protestants given the clear scriptural verses that describe salvation as avaliable to all through faith in Christ.

"That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:11)

And also with Jesus own words chastizing his disciples for criticizing other believers who were not part of the disciples group.

"Teacher," said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” 39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. "(Mark 9:38-40)

I’d be interested in any reactions thoughts harmonizing this Church position with these verses (and the many others like them in the NT).

Thanks in advance,

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Robbinson]

*"*Now, therefore,
we declare, say, determine and pronounce
that for every human creature
it is necessary for salvation
to be subject to the authority of the Roman ponti**ff."
~ Pope Boniface VIII
This position of exclusivity regarding the road to salvation (vesting it exclusively in the Church under the authority of the Pope) is a very troublesome verse for Protestants given the clear scriptural verses that describe salvation as avaliable to all through faith in Christ.

"That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:11)

And also with Jesus own words chastizing his disciples for criticizing other believers who were not part of the disciples group.

"Teacher," said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” 39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. "(Mark 9:38-40)

I’d be interested in any reactions thoughts harmonizing this Church position with these verses (and the many others like them in the NT).

Thanks in advance,

Blessings,

Brian

I think I found the answer to my own question in the Catechism (and I feel alot better about it )

818 " However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communites that resulted frome the separation and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as broghters. . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorported into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.";

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: ‘the writtent Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.’ Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has trusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come, from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to Catholic Unity."

 

[jcrichton]

I think I found the answer to my own question in the Catechism (and I feel alot better about it )

818 " However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communites that resulted frome the separation and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as broghters. . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorported into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.";

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: ‘the writtent Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.’ Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has trusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come, from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to Catholic Unity."

Hi, Brian!

…though I may not be the best person to respond since I am ignorant of most Sacred Writings outside of the Holy Scriptures… I think that, for the most part, the Doctors/Fathers of the Faith, as well as the various Popes, have spoken addressing their immediate environment and era… as attested by the various Writings of the Apostles, the Church has always been assaulted both from within and from without and she has had to make pronouncements in order to clarify, instruct or defend the Faith… when we take extra-Biblical Writings out of their time of inception (issues being addressed and their particular era) we are bound to find what could be seen as errors in the Teachings of the Church…

I am pleased that you continued your search and that the Catechism of the Catholic Church was able to shed better light on your query…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[cazayoux]

It can be both … Peter, the office holder who bears the authority of one who has been entrusted with the “Keys” by the Master [Jesus] and his [Peter’s] confession of faith [an oath of fidelity] if you will… they ar not mutualy exclusive and the church recognizes that …

Exactly!
It is both.
The Catholic Church, as evidenced in the Catechism, does not deny that Peters confession of faith is a valid interpretation, and does not limit this text to be the ONLY interpretation.

Salut!

michel