Scott Hahn and "fallible collection of infallible documents"

[mcq72]

Different sense. The building was started and commanded by the highest authority, Jesus Christ. Top. He passed it on to the Apostles. Next layer. And so on.

Yes and no. Yes can be inverted either way (pyramid).

Jesus is the head of the body so to speak (Beyond that analogy we aren’t given anything, like what part of the body are the apostles, or prophets, or the teachers).

Jesus also said we would not rule as the world rules (top down attitude?) but contrary wise, lead as servants, which “bottom up”, as in a building, exemplifies.

 

[lanman87]

You’re a dogged fighter for what you believe and it’s an HONOR crossing apologetical swords with you.

Well, the whole point, for all of us, I hope. It to learn. I find these discussion do a good job of causing me to dig deeper into Theology and History. I hope it is the same for ya’ll (I’m from the south).

 

[whatistrue]

And of course top and bottom do not necessarily mean physically above and below. The foundation of a building is physically below the rest of the building, but can be argued as the most important part (or top, kind of like the “top dog” is the most important but not necessarily physically above the others). Likewise the combination of Scripture and Holy Tradition (not like the order of Mass or the style of vestments are tradition, but as the Trinity is a Tradition) are both the highest truth (top) and the foundation (base) of the Church.

 

[Maccabaeus2165]

No, @lanman87; I didn’t skip over it. I didn’t see any conflict with his essential thesis of doctrinal and love unity.

What I believe you’ve done is, in your evangelical enthusiasm and lens; overlook the rest of the article in favor of your ecumenical denominationalism that Jesus’ prayer and Saint Paul’s admonitions against factionalism directly stated. As well as taking one man’s interpretation and try to override Christ’s clear and unambiguous statement for unity.

 

[lanman87]

How can we be that if we don’t agree on doctrine?

Honestly, when I first started reading Catholic apologist I was shocked at the claim that Protestantism, in particular what has become American Evangelicalism, is a bunch of divergent churches who are not unified in Christ.

Let me tell you why. Because my experience says otherwise. I was raised in a small rural community in the south. We had two Baptist Churches and one United Methodist church in our little community. I went to one of the Baptist churches and my best friend went to the Methodist church. I went with my friend to church often and he went to church with me often. Most of the kids at the Baptist church went to the Methodist VBS and youth functions and vice-versa. Methodist preachers would be invited to preach at “revival” services at the Baptist church and Baptist preachers would be invited to preach at the “revival” services at the Methodist church. My impression, as a child and youth, was that the Methodist had more candles and sprinkled and we dunked people, otherwise we were the same. We treated each other the same, we worshiped the same God, served the same Jesus and fellowshipped with one another as fellow believers. There was no disunity, despite doctrinal differences (that most of us never talked about). Disagreement didn’t mean disunity.

As an adult I’ve experience the same thing, even more so. In 1997 I attended the Promise Keepers, Stand in the Gap event in Washington DC. There were hundreds of thousands of men from all different denominations (including Catholic) kneeling on our face before God in unity and crying out to God on behalf of our country, communities and families.

Where I currently live we have a group of over 30 churches from various denominations working together to help the poor and hungry. We have joint events and services several times a year. We love each other, we rejoice with each other and at times grieve with each other. Our unity in Christ and zeal for His purposes makes our denominational difference for the most part irrelevant. We may have discussions about our different understandings but they all take a back seat to our shared faith in Christ.

So I just don’t see the disunity that Catholics project on to us.

 

[lanman87]

No, @lanman87; I didn’t skip over it. I didn’t see any conflict with his essential thesis of doctrinal and love unity.

Well, that paragraph said the same thing, in a much better way, that I what I said (or at least was trying to say) above.

 

[ArchStanton]

I’m from the south

I am as well … I think earlier you mentioned DTS in one of your posts… I have a friend that works there.

Blessings!

 

[adf417]

And is one then left alone by the Father in said search?

Of coarse not but like i said many are confused by this because of the plethora of interpretations of how the Father is speaking to them.

 

[Wannano]

Maccabaeus2165:

How can we be that if we don’t agree on doctrine?

Honestly, when I first started reading Catholic apologist I was shocked at the claim that Protestantism, in particular what has become American Evangelicalism, is a bunch of divergent churches who are not unified in Christ.

Let me tell you why. Because my experience says otherwise. I was raised in a small rural community in the south. We had two Baptist Churches and one United Methodist church in our little community. I went to one of the Baptist churches and my best friend went to the Methodist church. I went with my friend to church often and he went to church with me often. Most of the kids at the Baptist church went to the Methodist VBS and youth functions and vice-versa. Methodist preachers would be invited to preach at “revival” services at the Baptist church and Baptist preachers would be invited to preach at the “revival” services at the Methodist church. My impression, as a child and youth, was that the Methodist had more candles and sprinkled and we dunked people, otherwise we were the same. We treated each other the same, we worshiped the same God, served the same Jesus and fellowshipped with one another as fellow believers. There was no disunity, despite doctrinal differences (that most of us never talked about). Disagreement didn’t mean disunity.

As an adult I’ve experience the same thing, even more so. In 1997 I attended the Promise Keepers, Stand in the Gap event in Washington DC. There were hundreds of thousands of men from all different denominations (including Catholic) kneeling on our face before God in unity and crying out to God on behalf of our country, communities and families.

Where I currently live we have a group of over 30 churches from various denominations working together to help the poor and hungry. We have joint events and services several times a year. We love each other, we rejoice with each other and at times grieve with each other. Our unity in Christ and zeal for His purposes makes our denominational difference for the most part irrelevant. We may have discussions about our different understandings but they all take a back seat to our shared faith in Christ.

So I just don’t see the disunity that Catholics project on to us.

Ianman, I live in the west of Canada and what happens in the deep south happens as well in the frigid north. The communities I am in relationship with all have fantastic joint cooperation btween the non-Catholic churches. The Catholic Churches have very limited involvement in shared services but in everyday life many many Catholics have involvement with the nons in community service and efforts.

Honestly, I never knew there was such a distaste for “Protestants” on behalf of Catholics until I came here to CAF. I am starting to wonder if my Catholic Deacon friend is right when he says I should take posters on this forum with a grain of salt because they do not in general represent the Catholic Church as it wishes to be represented in modern times.

 

[lanman87]

Back to the original topic of this thread.

If someone really wants to know a Protestant/Reformed perspective on the Canon of Scripture then they can find it on the Ligonier.org website. They have temporarily opened up most of their teaching videos for free. Even if you disagree with the conclusions you may still find the videos interesting, just to see how others come to conclusions.

All of the videos are less than 30 minutes long. There are six videos in total.

The Problem of the Canon

The definition of the Canon

The reason for the Canon

The Date of the Canon

The Authors of the Canon

The attributes of the canon

 

[mcq72]

Of coarse not but like i said many are confused by this because of the plethora of interpretations of how the Father is speaking to them.

Understand, but like in Jesus’s day, did Jesus and the apostles try to straighten out others errors directly, or did they just preach the straight truth, and let the chips fall where they may? …" to those that hath an ear, let them hear"…and even there, He often spoke in parables.

Actually He did a little of both, for he sharply criticized the Pharisees .

 

[Maccabaeus2165]

@Ianman87,

Catholic isn’t a denomination. It’s the Church Christ founded upon the rock of Saint Peter to whom the keys of the Kingdom were given. Saint Peter and the Apostles founded several churches and passed on the Deposit of Faith ( Scripture and Tradition ) to their successors the bishops. To whom they gave their authority.

Your denominations were founded by men who radically revised history and theology. Traditions of men with an incomplete faith; not the Tradition of God and the completeness of the Faith.

I forgive you implying that the Church is just another denomination.

I came to my conclusions because I read the Scriptures, history and the Protestant denominations for myself. When I let the data speak for itself, all roads led to Rome because the Church goes all the way back to Christ and the Apostles and has the fullness of the Faith.

I’ll address your statements on the supposed dissension on Scripture and the canon later.

By the way: I’m glad you’ve had good experiences with other Christians. I, however; had to fight my own family for much of my time after I came into the Church. All Protestants.

Have a good day, my brethren in Christ.

 

[lanman87]

Your denominations were founded by men who radically revised history and theology. Traditions of men with an incomplete faith; not the Tradition of God and the completeness of the Faith.

Well Michael, I disagree. But we’ve been through this many times. You are entitled to your opinion and understanding and I’m entitled to mine.

 

[lanman87]

I’ll address your statements on the supposed dissension on Scripture and the canon later.

I would appreciate it if you would watch all 6 videos I’ve linked before commenting. Almost anything I would have to say is taught in that video series.

 

[Maccabaeus2165]

Is he Protestant?

 

[lanman87]

Yes, the topic of this thread was how protestants can claim to know the New Testament is the New Testament without an infallible church to decide what is and isn’t the New Testament scriptures.

Those videos do a fairly good job of answering that question. Certainly better than I can do.

If you actually want to know the Protestant thought on why we can be confident that the 27 books of the New Testament are correct, then you can watch the videos. If you don’t care why we believe the New Testament is accurate and just want to tell me (and us protestants in general) that we are wrong. Well, fine, you’ve told me we are wrong. If that is the case there is nothing more to say.

 

[Peter_Jericho]

Maccabaeus2165:

How can we be that if we don’t agree on doctrine?

Honestly, when I first started reading Catholic apologist I was shocked at the claim that Protestantism, in particular what has become American Evangelicalism, is a bunch of divergent churches who are not unified in Christ.

Oddly enough, I originally took for granted that this was a good way to show people that Protestantism is wrong, but in recent years I’ve been moving away from it somewhat.

There are different reasons for this. For one thing, I have found that it isn’t very effective on people who aren’t already skeptical of Protestantism … especially in a world where the argument often gets reduced down to “Well, there are 30,000 Protestant denominations, so there.”

But also, over the years I’ve become much more troubled by the almost-cult-like loyalty that Evangelicals have for Evangelicalism, so …

 

[Maccabaeus2165]

Ianman, I’ve been meditating on yours and @Wannano ‘s words.

I’m not here to hate on my brethren in Christ and I apologize.

I’d like to offer the olive branch.

Please don’t again refer to the Church as a denomination, as it deeply affected me when you implied it and I assume you meant no offense; and say the Church is false and I’ll be more respectful and I’ll try to understand why you believe the way you do rather than dismiss it out of hand.

You respect me and I’ll respect you.

Does this sound fair?

 

[Wannano]

Ianman, I’ve been meditating on yours and @Wannano ‘s words.

I’m not here to hate on my brethren in Christ and I apologize.

I’d like to offer the olive branch.

Please don’t again refer to the Church as a denomination, as it deeply affected me when you implied it and I assume you meant no offense; and say the Church is false and I’ll be more respectful and I’ll try to understand why you believe the way you do rather than dismiss it out of hand.

You respect me and I’ll respect you.

Does this sound fair?

This is an interesting post Maccabeaus. I am hoping Ianman will respond and perhaps I should have waited for him but since you included me I will offer my thoughts.

I have looked back over the last 50 posts and cannot find where Ianman said the CC is a denomination or that the Catholic Church is false. Perhaps you could explain with post number where you found this. If it was somehow implied, I cannot find that either, unless having a different belief, which we obviously do, somehow is making you angry. I would suggest you need to ask yourself why you have the need to be angry and bitter if someone has a differing viewpoint from your own. To be very honest Maccabeaus, you stated " your denominations were founded by men who radically revised history and theology. Traditions of men with incomplete faith, NOT the tradition of God and the completeness of the Faith." This statement does not instill anger within me at all, it just makes me very sad.
How can I be a "brother in Christ " to you if you cannot see God’s leading in the Reformation at all. I have become fairly close to different Catholic priests over the last twenty years who genuinely proclaimed that the Reformation (midst all its failings) was a movement of God to be instrumental in keeping Christianity faithful to its origins. What all that means of course is debatable…but the CC itself says we are brothers in Christ.

We are to love God with all our being, AND to love others as much as we love our selves. If we truly have the love of God in us and we truly love others we have no need to give anger and bitterness a foothold in our lives and relationships.

I personally don’t feel we can demand others to respect us, we need to earn that respect.And I know myself how lacking I am in that department.

 

[lanman87]

Please don’t again refer to the Church as a denomination,

I understand that many Catholics are offending at calling the Catholic church a denomination. I didn’t mean to do that. Putting (including Catholics) in that post was an afterthought. The Promise Keepers movement in the early 90’s was an evangelical men’s movement that was open to Catholics. I added (including Catholics) to the post when I remembered seeing a Catholic priest walking around in the crowd and the 1997 Stand in the Gap event. After doing some research, Promise Keepers also had a Catholic on the board of directors, Mike Timmis, and invited a Catholic to speak, Jim Berlucchi, at many of their events.

And there is a difference is saying the church is false and saying the church got some things wrong. I have a lot of respect for the Catholic church. It was the work of Monks in the middle ages that copied the scriptures over and over again. The Catholic church pretty much invented universities and hospitals. There have been many Catholics, both in history and today, who obviously have a deep and abiding faith in Christ and show it by their countenance and actions.

The vast majority of non-Catholics view Catholic Christians as fellow followers of Christ. There are outliers on the fringe that don’t believe that just as their are outliers on the fringe of Catholicism who believe that non-Catholic “Christians” are doing the work of Satan and have no chance at being “saved”.

You have to remember that we (at least those in my circle) believe that someone isn’t saved by being a Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, or Catholic. We believe people are saved by the transforming power of Christ that turns a heart of stone to a heart of flesh and results in a changed life.