Scott Hahn and "fallible collection of infallible documents"

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The reason I keep talking about that is that one of the major talking points of Catholic Apologist is unity.
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Agreed. But this argument is more complicated and nuanced than what is typically found on internet discussion forums.
 
Wannano said:
Can you honestly say you have actually even met one person who is either Mormon or JW that became Mormon or JW solely by studying the Bible alone? Without help from the"magesterium" of those groups I highly doubt you would arrive at their conclusions from studying the Bible alone.
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Amen, Wannano. It reminds me of something a formerly-Protestant friend said to me once: Tons of Protestant children are taught to say “Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so.” before they even know how to read.
 
adf417 said:
And i told you there are millions of people looking for this true church based on your paradigm on how to find it by reading the bible alone to find themselves in the Mormon and JW churches. You are definitively making the case for them not Christianity.
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But American Evangelicals have not accepted or affirmed Mormons or JW as Christians. My entire life I’ve been taught they are cults. The reason being, they don’t hold to the fundamentals that American Evangelicals hold to be the marks of true Christianity. Just because there is no “head evangelical” doesn’t mean that there isn’t an implicit agreement among evangelicals as to what is and isn’t valid expressions of Christianity.
 
Wannano said:
I have worked closely with both Mormons and JW’s for years and they both infinitely stress their "magesteriums. " Book of Mormon and Watchtower.
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I am not disputing they have this kind of authority. Im saying every one I know that “became” what they are as adults, all profess they became this because of their interpretation of the bible. Being born into it and getting out of it is a different story.
Wannano said:
I can’t think of anyone else who has that kind of authority figure.
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I can with one big difference, the Catholic church doesn’t disfellowship and shun known sinners.

Peace!!!
 
adf417 said:
you can’t definitively show the true church, … to rightly define the faith, define which church is the true
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adf417 said:
What objective definitive tool do you have,
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adf417 said:
WHO gets to draw the lines
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adf417 said:
But if Catholicism is not please show me/us where this true church is
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adf417 said:
I” dont have a “magic bullet” but together “we” do.
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Well the first four quotes are similar paradigm, making it difficult for a together “we”. So we include half brethren, or only communities.

Yet we both present definitive Christology to seekers, nothing to confuse here. We both present a decision to be made, and a judgement to come, determining eternal destiny. Mormons have no excuse on that part of “we”.
 
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adf417 said:
Im saying every one I know that “became” what they are as adults, all profess they became this because of their interpretation of the bible.
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I know several people who are ex-Catholics. One is even an elder at my church. Their testimony is that they didn’t leave the Catholic church because they started reading their Bible and deciding for themselves what it meant. It is that someone befriended them and talked to them about spiritual matters and shared their faith with them. And, at some point they realized that they had religion but didn’t have a personal faith in Christ. Then they became convicted of sin and their need for a personal faith in Christ and were “born again”, “converted”, “saved”…whatever term you want to use for having a personal encounter with Christ that is life changing.

It was only then that they left the Catholic church to pursue a personal relationship with Christ, without the need for a church or priest to be the go between. All their stories are a little different but it all boils down to a personal encounter with Christ and the call of the Holy Spirit to trust in Christ alone for their salvation and spiritual journey. Obviously it worked out well for them, particularly my friend who is an elder. God has used him and his wife to minister to married couples and who knows how many marriages have been restored thanks to their ministry.
 
adf417 said:
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Wannano:
I have worked closely with both Mormons and JW’s for years and they both infinitely stress their "magesteriums. " Book of Mormon and Watchtower.
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I am not disputing they have this kind of authority. Im saying every one I know that “became” what they are as adults, all profess they became this because of their interpretation of the bible.
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Thank you for clarifying, I was wondering if you really knew of millions…
 
adf417 said:
Their justification, and equally their motivation, is in our (Christian) disunity
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I dont think so. I for instance am not motivated or justified by the division between Orthodox and Catholics. I personally was not confused about this when I was confronted to become a Christian. Again, accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior was forefront, not which church to join.
adf417 said:
Look, i really dont care if Catholicism is not the true church, I honestly dont care which church/denomination it is
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Ok, but you certainly care about the Catholic trait of believing in one church at expense of others. Like wanting unity amongst mankind believing everyone should be one race, one color, be it black, or red, or white. Or like trying to figure out who was the real Jew when Jesus was born, so that their authority could unify others. But pick one, Essenes, Pharisees, Saduccees etc., otherwise who draws the line, who really represents Judaism to the world, even to itself?

They were all part of Judaism, just as surely as black, red, white and yellow are all part of human race.

Again we are at odds of just what unity in Christ and with each other simply is.
 
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Wannano said:
I can’t think of anyone else who has that kind of authority.
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I can with one big difference, the Catholic church doesn’t disfellowship and shun known sinners.
Lol, that is something I cannot figure out. Why? The early catholic church did.

Peace!!!
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Not a matter of approval, @lanman87.

You haven’t successfully showed how your ecumenism is the true church compared to the Church.

Like for instance:

Catholics differ on practices, but not on belief. We believe in the same Christ.

Your church has differing concepts of what Christ taught and meant. That’s not unity; it’s disunity.
 
adf417 said:
Catholics have not either but that is so not the point.
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The point is that neither Catholics or Evangelicals telling them that they are wrong makes any difference. They don’t care what we think.
 
adf417 said:
And i told you there are millions of people looking for this true church based on your paradigm on how to find it by reading the bible alone to find themselves in the Mormon and JW churches
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First of all, “no man seeks after God”. Yet “seek and ye shall find” but one must be drawn by the Father to the Son.
 
Maccabaeus2165 said:
You haven’t successfully showed how your ecumenism is the true church compared to the Church.
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And you haven’t shown that your ecumenism, your Church, is winning more souls for Christ, adding to the bride . This true church thing focus is a weight on our true mission.
 
I read the entire article, @Ianman87 and it was a beautiful piece. But, it doesn’t mean what you think it means.

At least twice he mentions the word orthodoxy and once unequivocally states that he’s not condoning heresy. His basic point is: Not only doctrinal unity is needed; also unity in love is needed to fulfill Saint John 17:20-23. Not just unity in love without any doctrinal unity.

Unity in doctrine and in love is his essential point.

You’ve overlooked this, my friend.
 
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