Scott Hahn and "fallible collection of infallible documents"

[lanman87]

All I am asking is WHO gets to draw the lines that do eventually become division? You?

God is the judge. Not man.

And we also have teaching tool (ccc) that says otherwise that even you can use to correct those that may stray from the truth.

But they all say their version of Catholicism is the correct version, or at least an acceptable version. What is the difference in that than a Baptist protestant saying that a Methodist protestant is an acceptable version of Christianity, even though we don’t agree on everything?

But enough deflecting lanman87 - If you can’t definitively show the true church,

This goes back to the definition of “church”. It is an organization or is it a people group? The Biblical word for church, ecclesia, means group of people, congregation, or those gathered together. It has no connotation of an organized hierarchical organization. The definition of church to mean a hierarchical organization came later and is a change from the meaning as it was used in the Scriptures.

You can find one church, it is those called by Christ. The fact that they are found in different organizations/denominations in no way destroys the one church, the Body of Christ which is made up of the redeemed.

If I ask you, “Should I become a charismatic Catholic, an SSPX Catholic, should I be a Molinist or a Thomist and so forth”? Your only possible answer is that it doesn’t matter, because they are all Catholic. Otherwise it means you aren’t truly united.

Well, when you ask me if I should be a Baptist, Methodist, or Presbyterian. I’m going to say it doesn’t really matter as long as they are Christian. And while I would prefer you to go to my church and agree with me on everything, the thing that really matters is what you believe about Christ and how that belief has changed your life.

 

[lanman87]

If someone believes in Sola Scriptura, why would they try to back up their claims with history?

To show that the church has always relied on Scripture to show the apostolic teaching of Christ and apostles.

 

[lanman87]

I don’t want get too far off-topic, but as I read your various comments about unity (or lack thereof) in the Catholic Church, I keep things “Isn’t that how it always was?”

The reason I keep talking about that is that one of the major talking points of Catholic Apologist is unity. The claim is that one of the reasons to not be Protestant is all the division and denominations. That you can’t know for sure which one should be as they can’t all be right.

I’m simply pointing out that Catholicism has the same problem, admittedly to a lesser degree, but there are still factions and different expressions of Catholicism.

And yes, that is how it always was and how it will always be. We are all bound by human limitations. One day the answers will all be given. Until that time, we humans will argue over what we think are the best answers and that will cause division.

 

[Wannano]

You have done a marvelous job here recently Ianman. I think I am correct in saying that that final day when we have all the revealed answer, there will be division like never before. The wheat from the tares, the sheep from the goats.

 

[adf417]

God is the judge. Not man.

Deflection- even Mormons and JWs have this answer.

But they all say their version of Catholicism is the correct version, or at least an acceptable version. What is the difference in that than a Baptist protestant saying that a Methodist protestant is an acceptable version of Christianity, even though we don’t agree on everything?

The difference is this-

Yes, you are unified on the sacraments and the dogmas of the church.

Well, when you ask me if I should be a Baptist, Methodist, or Presbyterian.

But that is not my question is it? My question is and has always been, If you can’t definitively show the true church, and if there is no “magic bullet” to rightly define the faith, then why cant Mormons, JWs, WBC or whoever use your paradigm, “the bible as sole rule” to define and justify their faith? I respectfully ask you to please answer this question without deflecting.

Peace!!!

 

[lanman87]

But that is not my question is it? My question is and has always been, If you can’t definitively show the true church, and if there is no “magic bullet” to rightly define the faith,

And I told you what I think the true church is. It is the people of God. The ecclesia.

 

[lanman87]

Yes, you are unified on the sacraments and the dogmas of the church.

And we have fundamental beliefs as well.

 

[ArchStanton]

Yes, you are unified on the sacraments and the dogmas of the church.

And we have fundamental beliefs as well.

But where does ‘authority’ enter the picture?

Thanks

 

[lanman87]

But where does ‘ authority ’ enter the picture?

The concept of a single authority in religion no longer exist. We have freedom of religion which means everyone makes up his own mind. Hopefully, based on his knowledge and his experiences. But people are free to believe whatever their conscious leads them to believe.

The truth is, it has always been that way. The difference is we no longer have a dominate religion that forces others to either hide or risk being persecuted. At least in Western countries that allow the freedom of religion.

In our modern society if someone (or group) stands up and says, “I have the truth, I’m the one in charge, I know all the answers, follow me” then any other person (or group) has the right to examine their claims and either agree with them or reject them, either in whole or in part. Until after well after the Reformation that was not possible. Just ask John Huss or the Waldensians or the Catholics who were persecuted when the State became Protestant.

Religious authority is no longer derived and supported by the State, for any religion. Therefore, the only people who are under any religious institutions authority are those that choose to be under that authority.

What we have now is mutual acceptance and affirmation. That is how it works in American Evangelicalism. That is why folks and preachers from different denominations work together and worship together. While they don’t agree on every point of doctrine and practice, they still accept each other as fellow Christians and affirm each other by mutual consent and support.

 

[ArchStanton]

But where does ‘ authority ’ enter the picture?

The concept of a single authority in religion no longer exist.

Separation from the Church Christ established is key though

We have freedom of religion which means everyone makes up his own mind.

You do indeed have that freedom [but at what price?]

The truth is, it has always been that way.

Freedom yes, – truth? I would go back to your post # 259 [I think] “…back claim with history and logic”

Blessings!

 

[lanman87]

Separation from the Church Christ established is key though

Yes, but one of the huge disagreements is the definition of the church.

 

[ArchStanton]

Separation from the Church Christ established is key though

Yes, but one of the huge disagreements is the definition of the church.

Indeed… I would look at a few verses [larger picture] to see if One Church was established [history] and look at the early church fathers as well.

Blessings!

 

[adf417]

And I told you what I think the true church is. It is the people of God. The ecclesia.

And i told you there are millions of people looking for this true church based on your paradigm on how to find it by reading the bible alone to find themselves in the Mormon and JW churches. You are definitively making the case for them not Christianity.

Peace!!!

 

[Wannano]

lanman87:

And I told you what I think the true church is. It is the people of God. The ecclesia.

And i told you there are millions of people looking for this true church based on your paradigm on how to find it by reading the bible alone to find themselves in the Mormon and JW churches. You are definitively making the case for them not Christianity.

Peace!!!

Can you honestly say you have actually even met one person who is either Mormon or JW that became Mormon or JW solely by studying the Bible alone? Without help from the"magesterium" of those groups I highly doubt you would arrive at their conclusions from studying the Bible alone.

Actually that is true of Catholicism as well since much of it is formed from Tradition.

 

[Maccabaeus2165]

@Wannano and @Ianman87:

I offer Saint John 17:20-23.

In this passage, Jesus prays that we are one as He and the Father are one. That means in perfect accord as they are and that means doctrine and dogma as well. Then, there’s the other NT authors calling for churches to be of one mind and spirit.

How can we be that if we don’t agree on doctrine?

 

[adf417]

Can you honestly say you have actually even met one person who is either Mormon or JW that became Mormon or JW solely by studying the Bible alone?

Yes i can. My whole family and many others.

Without help from the"magesterium" of those groups I highly doubt you would arrive at their conclusions from studying the Bible alone.

Well thats what they claim but then so does the rest of Christianity with differing doctrines. So…this is the problem i have been trying to highlight.

Peace!!!

 

[Wannano]

Not sure if the Mormons have their own translation of the Bible but I know the JW’s do. Is your family JW?

 

[adf417]

Yes they are and they will defend their doctrine with your bible as well. They started out with the KJV before they came up with their own.

Peace!!!

 

[Wannano]

I have been subjected to their Bible and there are differences, sometimes small but it changes the meaning. They also have developing doctrine that has changed them quite a bit in recent years.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

Can you honestly say you have actually even met one person who is either Mormon or JW that became Mormon or JW solely by studying the Bible alone?

Yes i can. My whole family and many others.

Without help from the"magesterium" of those groups I highly doubt you would arrive at their conclusions from studying the Bible alone.

Well thats what they claim but then so does the rest of Christianity with differing doctrines. So…this is the problem i have been trying to highlight.

Peace!!!

I have worked closely with both Mormons and JW’s for years and they both infinitely stress their "magesteriums. " Book of Mormon and Watchtower.

I can’t think of anyone else who has that kind of authority figure.