Scott Hahn and "fallible collection of infallible documents"

[adf417]

adf417:

Im sorry mcq72, I really just dont get this statement. How do you have faith on what was handed down to you (scripture canon) then differ what was handed down. Respectfully i just done get this position.

Peace!!!

Well, when you became Catholic or raised as one, they handed you a bible. When I became a Protestant they handed me a bible. You have faith in your canon as I have faith in mine. Twas handed down to us. Yes, your handing dien goes back further, but our rationale for our difference goes back just as far.

I hope someone reading this that is searching for truth does not conclude that the Mormons or JW’s are justified in their rational based on what you write. Although i could understand how they could.

Peace!!!

 

[lanman87]

I hope someone reading this that is searching for truth does not conclude that the Mormons or JW’s are justified in their rational based on what you write. Although i could understand how they could.

Peace!!!

As I alluded to earlier, one of the main reasons we can faith in the New Testament Canon at least, is that the Catholic church, the Reformation Churches, and the Orthodox churches all hold to the same books of the New Testament. That is a lot of vetting done by all three major branches of Christianity, and while there were some minor squabbles for a little while in the Reformation, the end result is that we all have the same 27 books. To me, that is probably the greatest evidence of the correctness of the canon of the New Testament.

Sadly, the Dueterocannonical books are a different story as there were two schools of thought on those books from the beginning of the church. In the 16th Century The Catholic church firmly landed on one school of thought and the Protestants firmly landed on the other school of thought. With both sides saying the other is wrong.

 

[mcq72]

hope someone reading this that is searching for truth does not conclude that the Mormons or JW’s are justified in their rational based on what you write. Although i could understand how they could.

Peace!!!

You are absolutely right, they could, just like we do. There is no magic bullet of exclusively rightly qualifying a matter of faith.

 

[adf417]

adf417:

hope someone reading this that is searching for truth does not conclude that the Mormons or JW’s are justified in their rational based on what you write. Although i could understand how they could.

Peace!!!

You are absolutely right, they could, just like we do. There is no magic bullet of exclusively rightly qualifying a matter of faith.

Then i must pray extra that you find as much peace in your lack of assurance of the rightness in your faith as i have found in mine. Although it seems by difinition, you cannot.

True peace be upon you brother!!!

 

[Maccabaeus2165]

If I’m not mistaken, @Ianman87; what you mean by small troubles is Luther wanting to cut down the NT canon as he did the OT?

If I remember right, he wanted to cut out the epistles of Saints James, Jude, Hebrews, 2 and 3 John, 2 Peter and Revelation and have his recommended reading list be focusing on the Pauline corpus. He even called Romans “ the purest gospel “.

As for the Deuterocanonical books, the Council of Rome set the canon, OT and NT; in 382. Admittedly, it wasn’t an ecumenical Council like Trent was; so there was room for dissension, though the canon WAS accepted all that time. Trent, being an ecumenical Council; had to “ harden “ the canon and state no more dissension on the matter; precisely because of the Protestant revolt.

 

[mcq72]

Then i must pray extra that you find as much peace in your lack of assurance of the rightness in your faith as i have found in mine. Although it seems by difinition, you cannot.

True peace be upon you brother!!!

I think you misunderstand. I think one’s own assurance does not negate the process that I use or you use to come to one’s personal faith convictions to others. It is not exclusive, and does not not stop another to come to different even erronous conclusions.

But you know us better, that we claim assurance of salvation and the absoluteness of His truths, just as you surely claim the headship of the pope.

 

[adf417]

adf417:

Then i must pray extra that you find as much peace in your lack of assurance of the rightness in your faith as i have found in mine. Although it seems by difinition, you cannot.

True peace be upon you brother!!!

I think you misunderstand. I think one’s own assurance does not negate the process that I use or you use to come to one’s personal faith convictions to others. It is not exclusive, and does not not stop another to come to different even erronous conclusions.

But you know us better, that we claim assurance of salvation and the absoluteness of His truths, just as you surely claim the headship of the pope.

i do understand, from the personal pov. Who am i to judge what is in the heart of an individual. I was speaking from the evangelization pov. You evangelize others and say you have assurance of salvation because God’s word says - “x”. Then you say “there is no magic bullet of exclusively rightly qualifying a matter of faith” (which i have doubts you say when evangelizing a non-believer). These 2 statements are contridictory if there ever was such.

Peace!!!

 

[mcq72]

i do understand, from the personal pov. Who am i to judge what is in the heart of an individual. I was speaking from the evangelization pov.

Good that you understand that personal point of view. It is from that , or what is in the heart, that lends to an evangelizing of others.

Then you say “there is no magic bullet of exclusively rightly qualifying a matter of faith” (which i have doubts you say when evangelizing a non-believer).

We have been over this before. You want me to say to others that there is a church that Jesus established, which alone is the perfect pillar of truth, the CC. No confusion, simple, authoritative, the magic bullet. Exclusive.

Well, the confusion still remains because there are other churches who also preach the goodness of the gospel that wins men’s hearts.

So, you preach a church where one can find Christ. Others preach Christ who places you in the church.

The bigger common denominator is then Christ, not an exclusive church, from my point of view.

He alone is the magic bullet that pierces the heart, irrespective of exclusive churches but not a universal church.

And please do not doubt that when others evangelize, they do not put forth their exclusive church (their “denomination”), and may not even mention it as such, so much greater is the need to meet and be at peace with their Sacrificed Creator, who wills to lead to greener pastures.

 

[Maccabaeus2165]

You raise an interesting point, @mcq72.

We do preach Jesus Christ and Jesus said to Saint Peter: Upon this rock I shall build My Church…

Notice He said My Church; not A church. That argues powerfully for the Church’s exclusivity as THE Church founded by Christ.

Don’t get me wrong. I know you guys preach Christ as well as you guys win men to Christ but to an incomplete faith in Christ outside of His Church.

 

[adf417]

We have been over this before. You want me to say to others that there is a church that Jesus established, which alone is the perfect pillar of truth, the CC. No confusion, simple, authoritative, the magic bullet. Exclusive.

Well, the confusion still remains because there are other churches who also preach the goodness of the gospel that wins men’s hearts.

So, you preach a church where one can find Christ. Others preach Christ who places you in the church.

The bigger common denominator is then Christ, not an exclusive church, from my point of view.

He alone is the magic bullet that pierces the heart, irrespective of exclusive churches but not a universal church.

And please do not doubt that when others evangelize, they do not put forth their exclusive church (their “denomination”), and may not even mention it as such, so much greater is the need to meet and be at peace with their Sacrificed Creator, who wills to lead to greener pastures.

:+1:t2:
Just know everything you post here justifies the Mormon church and the JW church also.

Peace!!!

 

[mcq72]

Don’t get me wrong. I know you guys preach Christ as well as you guys win men to Christ but to an incomplete faith in Christ outside of His Church.

Thank you for acknowledging our work in Christ in soul saving.

Thankfully also we are not incomplete in our regeneration, nor do we have an incomplete name written in the book of life, nor incompletely baptized in the Holy Ghost, nor incompletely forming in the Bride of Christ, nor incompletely washed by the blood, etc. etc…

Jesus does not give incomplete faith. His gifts are perfect. Now it may be small, or it may be large, and it may be excercised little or steadily but incomplete ? If you mean having every doctrine perfectly or the all the evidences and all the substance of Christ, yes, there is more to be had, till that great day.

 

[mcq72]

Just know everything you post here justifies the Mormon church and the JW church also.

Peace!!!

“There is a way that seems that seems right unto every man, but the ways are the ways of death.”

Can’t stop people from wresting from what should lead unto life. Can you?

 

[Wannano]

mcq72:

We have been over this before. You want me to say to others that there is a church that Jesus established, which alone is the perfect pillar of truth, the CC. No confusion, simple, authoritative, the magic bullet. Exclusive.

Well, the confusion still remains because there are other churches who also preach the goodness of the gospel that wins men’s hearts.

So, you preach a church where one can find Christ. Others preach Christ who places you in the church.

The bigger common denominator is then Christ, not an exclusive church, from my point of view.

He alone is the magic bullet that pierces the heart, irrespective of exclusive churches but not a universal church.

And please do not doubt that when others evangelize, they do not put forth their exclusive church (their “denomination”), and may not even mention it as such, so much greater is the need to meet and be at peace with their Sacrificed Creator, who wills to lead to greener pastures.

:+1:t2:
Just know everything you post here justifies the Mormon church and the JW church also.

Peace!!!

I can’t see that conclusion at all for both the Mormon and JW organizations feel they are the one and only true church…no?

 

[adf417]

Can’t stop people from wresting from what should lead unto life. Can you?

No but we can help alleviate their confusion.

I can’t see that conclusion at all for both the Mormon and JW organizations feel they are the one and only true church…no?

Based on what mcq72 wrote in post 248 above he justifies the Mormon church and the JW church. They could profess the same thing and they too have the same scriptures used to back up their position. And sense there is no “magic bullet” of qualifying rightness the lost person who may be searching is now justified in his confusion.

Peace!!!

 

[Wannano]

mcq72:

Can’t stop people from wresting from what should lead unto life. Can you?

No but we can help alleviate their confusion.

I can’t see that conclusion at all for both the Mormon and JW organizations feel they are the one and only true church…no?

Based on what mcq72 wrote in post 248 above he justifies the Mormon church and the JW church. They could profess the same thing and they too have the same scriptures used to back up their position. And sense there is no “magic bullet” of qualifying rightness the lost person who may be searching is now justified in his confusion.

Peace!!!

Not at all, you are barking up an empty tree. He said the common denominator is Christ not an exclusive entity…both the Mormon and JW are exclusively right in their own eyes.

 

[Maccabaeus2165]

@Wannano,

The Church is the exclusive Church from a clear basis in both Scripture and the historical record as the Church descended in clear organizational lineage from the Apostles and the churches outside the Church were never part of that lineage.

An analogy would be engineers leaving the Ford Motor Company, redesigning the Model T and claiming they’re the one true Ford Motor Company.

 

[adf417]

Not at all, you are barking up an empty tree. He said the common denominator is Christ not an exclusive entity…both the Mormon and JW are exclusively right in their own eyes.

Right, and you justify this based on how you interpret the bible. And the the fuller context of the earlier part of the thread its exactly the same paradigm, and bible, Mormons and JW use to justify their positions as well.

Peace!!!

 

[Wannano]

I have absolutely no idea what you are driving at so mark me down as clueless!

 

[Wannano]

@Wannano,

The Church is the exclusive Church from a clear basis in both Scripture and the historical record as the Church descended in clear organizational lineage from the Apostles and the churches outside the Church were never part of that lineage.

An analogy would be engineers leaving the Ford Motor Company, redesigning the Model T and claiming they’re the one true Ford Motor Company.

Hi Michael, how you been?
Maybe it’s more like Ford vs Ferrari where a new Shelby development exceeds anything the old beaurocracy could envision!

 

[lanman87]

Based on what mcq72 wrote in post 248 above he justifies the Mormon church and the JW church. They could profess the same thing and they too have the same scriptures used to back up their position.

In a free society anyone can profess anything. The question is can they back up their claims with history and logic?

Edit, of course we all believe that we can show our position from history and logic. That is why it is call “Faith”.