Scott Hahn and "fallible collection of infallible documents"

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I hope you can see, or will see, how that makes Evangelical Protestants downright absurd in our eyes.
Why is it absurd that we agree with Jerome, Gregory the Great, and all those theologians I listed when it comes to the Deuterocanon?
I’m afraid you have it completely backwards friend. It’s not absurd that your agree with Jerome. It is Evangelicalism that is absurd … or, at least, it should appear absurd to anyone who has delved into the “fallible collection of infallible documents” issue.
 
‘But, Dr. Gerstner, how can I be certain that it’s really God’s infallible Word that I am reading when I open up Matthew, or Romans, or Galatians?’

'Like I said, Scott, all we have is a fallible collection of infallible documents.’
The books of the New Testament are considered infallible by universal agreement.

The “fallibility” of the list is incompleteness. Protestants must accept that in limiting the canon to 27 or so books, they may omit authentic revelation from sources not universally agreed upon.
 
The “fallibility” of the list is incompleteness
Straw man. Maybe. I mean is this not an either/or ultimatum instead of both/ and ?

The quoted Evangelical should be asked if he then thinks the NT is incomplete? Ask him if he doubts the gospel of John is God breathed? Does he think Clement’s letter to Romans should be in there?

Perhaps what might seem absurd is that by saying fallible list one thinks he denies tradition, or councils, or church heirarchy involvement in process. Does he?

All I know is I believe in 27 books as was first presented to me as a Christian, by the Christian community, which is also in harmony with CC I came out of. I later came to read up on how we all came to the 27. It is understandable, the criteria that they used.

I would also attest to, and not deny anyone the same privelege, of indeed hearing His voice in said books quite uniquely, compared to other Christian writings. There are a few that come close but that’s it.

Again its a matter of faith in what is handed down to us. We only differ on Deutero books, and I side with shorter canon yet understand other position. Do not have need to declare anyone infallible (except Jesus) yet would not say my faith in canon is in error.
 
Again its a matter of faith in what is handed down to us. We only differ on Deutero books,…
Im sorry mcq72, I really just dont get this statement. How do you have faith on what was handed down to you then differ what was handed down. Respectfully i just done get this position.

Peace!!!
 
It is also my understanding that the favored position at Nicaea was non-Trinitarin, and look where we are.
That is not true. Of the 300 or so Bishops at Nicaea only 3 voted for the Arian position. Arius and two of his supported. All 297 or so of the others affirmed the Trinitarian position.

Here is a short, but very well done video about the council of Nicaea and afterward.
 
I’m afraid you have it completely backwards friend. It’s not absurd that your agree with Jerome. It is Evangelicalism that is absurd … or, at least, it should appear absurd to anyone who has delved into the “fallible collection of infallible documents” issue.
Well, at the end of the day it comes to faith. Do I have faith the God revealed the 27 books he wanted as Scripture to the church. Yes I do. Do I have understand that the church came to an agreement about what those 27 books are. Yes I do. Do I have faith that this was the will of God and He is the one responsible for this happening. Yes I do.

You see, it is not really about having faith in people, or even the church. It is about having faith in God and that His will has been accomplished.
 
Accomplished through the Church, @lanman87. A Church Protestants deny.
I find your position strange. You have faith in the NT canon as given by God; but you deny the instrument through which the canon was settled and then deny the OT canon.

I think it would be more intellectually honest if you doubted everything and started from scratch rather than picking and choosing what you put your faith in based on your interpretation.

It’s being a cafeteria Christian; basically.

It’s having your cake and eating it too, my friend.
 
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@lanman87,

And how is the Catholic Church false?

Please try to prove your point.

If the Church was false, you can’t even trust the canon that was produced by that Church and you’re left with nothing.

I find the Protestant position that they affirm the catholic/universal church is absurd. The claim you make that such a collection of disunited, disparate and dissimilar factions represent a catholic/universal church is unrealistic in an organizational sense.

It’s better to state that your communities form a confederacy/alliance rather than a catholic and universal church.

A catholic and universal church is an unified church that believes and practices the same thing and way everywhere. You don’t have that in the Protestant world.

Where on the other hand: You have the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that’s remained unified, whole and consistent in her teaching for 2,020 years.

On the other hand: What I suggest is that we have here is the Church as the core around which your communities are fellow travelers with the Church in imperfect communion.
 
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If the Church was false, you can’t even trust the canon that was produced by that Church and you’re left with nothing.
It is a fallacy to claim once right = always right and once wrong=always wrong.

You actually said
In the Church, there’s room for diversity of opinion as long as certain essentials are held on common.
Then later you said
A catholic and universal church is an unified church that believes and practices the same thing and way everywhere.
Which one is it?
 
I answer, @lanman87:

1: Jesus promised that the Church will be led by the Holy Spirit and be preserved from error and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her. Jesus Himself said it and thus it can’t be erroneous or a lie. Yes, the Church herself is always right.

Your guys’ communities broke away, left or got kicked out of the Church. You’re not covered by Our Lord’s promise.

As for your second point, it’s very simple, my friend in Christ and I’ll give you one potent example of my point on unity in essentials and diversity in non essentials:

It doesn’t matter what the details of the liturgy is, whether the parish church is Syro-Malabar, Latin Rite, Ukrainian Greek, et cetera or where on Earth it is: We know it’s Our Lord: Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity under the appearances of bread and wine that we receive. At the hands of a priest with Apostolic Succession and in communion with the Holy Father in Rome.

That’s why we are the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

You guys can’t even agree whether your crackers and grape juice is consubstantiated, symbolic or whatever.

That’s what makes your guys’ communities a grab bag of denominations; not a catholic and universal church.

I’m sorry to sound harsh. I just don’t know how to say it more charitably and still get the point across.
 
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It is also my understanding that the favored position at Nicaea was non-Trinitarin, and look where we are.
That is not true. Of the 300 or so Bishops at Nicaea only 3 voted for the Arian position. Arius and two of his supported. All 297 or so of the others affirmed the Trinitarian position.

Here is a short, but very well done video about the council of Nicaea and afterward.
It seems we may both be slightly off a bit in our conclusions. While your position may show properly the conclusion of the council, the thoughts of the 318 bishops at the beginning of the council is much different, which makes more sense as to why the council was called in the first place.
In reference to the theological question the council was divided in the beginning into three parties.1327

The orthodox party, which held firmly to the deity of Christ, was at first in the minority, but in talent and influence the more weighty. At the head of it stood the bishop (or “pope”) Alexander of Alexandria, Eustathius of Antioch, Macarius of Jerusalem, Marcellus of Ancyra, Rosins of Cordova (the court bishop), and above all the Alexandrian archdeacon, Athanasius, who, though small and young, and, according to later practice not admissible to a voice or a seat in a council, evinced more zeal and insight than all, and gave promise already of being the future head of the orthodox party.

The Arians or Eusebians numbered perhaps twenty bishops, under the lead of the influential bishop Eusebius of Nicemedia (afterwards of Constantinople), who was allied with the imperial family, and of the presbyter Arius, who attended at the command of the emperor, and was often called upon to set forth his views.1328 To these also belonged Theognis of Nicaea, Maris of Chalcedon, and Menophantus of Ephesus; embracing in this remarkable way the bishops of the several seats of the orthodox ecumenical councils.

The majority, whose organ was the renowned historian Eusebius of Caesarea, took middle ground between the right and the left, but bore nearer the right, and finally went over to that side. Many of them had an orthodox instinct, but little discernment; others were disciples of Origen, or preferred simple biblical expression to a scholastic terminology; others had no firm convictions, but only uncertain opinions, and were therefore easily swayed by the arguments of the stronger party or by mere external considerations.
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc3.iii.xii.iv.html

Peace!!!
 
That’s what makes your guys’ communities a grab bag of denominations; not a catholic and universal church.
We believe the catholic/universal church is found in that grab bag of denominations. Because whoever has been born again and has his heart changed from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh is and is a new creation in Christ, is part of the universal church.

In other words, the universal church is a diverse people group who belong to diverse institutions. Unity comes from a shared faith in Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit that binds us together into one body. Not what you believe about grape juice and crackers.
 
Jesus prayed to the Father that we’re to be one as He and the Father are one, @Ianman87.

Your diverse grab bag of separate institutions aren’t that unity. The Church, a single community; is that unity.

Unity is more than just a shared belief. It’s a common understanding that underlines the visible organizational unity.

You can’t have an invisible “ unity “ and call it good. It has to a visible organizational unity. Otherwise, it’s only an illusory “ unity “.
 
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You can’t have an invisible “ unity “ and call it good. It has to a visible organizational unity. Otherwise, it’s only an illusory “ unity “.
Spiritual unity is Christ, as evidence by his people of faith, the testimony and experience of His people, and the working of the Holy Spirit in their lives is a far more evidence of true unity than being part of the same organization.
 
And how is the Catholic Church false?
Not sure that is what was posted. What is false is her doctrine of exclusivity. What is false is her teaching that other churches are only ecclesial communities (which is strange, I mean i would hope a church/ ecclessia is also a community…quite visible ).
The claim you make that such a collection of disunited, disparate and dissimilar factions represent a catholic/universal church is unrealistic in an organizational sense
Yes, there is the biggie, the focus, the “organization”, the specific heirarchy, almost making a god out of it ( like said of King James bible only folk sometimes )…for sure a type of "I am of Peter or Apollos " preoccupation. The level of such can make it a sort of idol, or carnal for sure, right?
 
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History is messy. Often what we are told or assume has more layers or was more complicated that we realize.
 
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