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The speaker is a translator who is very sloppy with his or her pronouns. Here’s the verse in Greek (I can’t read Greek, but I do have significant supplementary notes, and here’s my source):From the Douay Rheims Bible, Gospel of John, Chapter 3:
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"6 That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit. 7 Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again. 8 The Spirit breatheth where he will; and thou hearest his voice, but thou knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."**
The Speaker is Jesus.
JPII said that OT Wisdom = “Chist.”Perhaps he was speaking about Sophia, I think, that is – or is, if I am mistaken with the name “Sophia” – Wisdom personified as a woman in the Old Testament. I believe Wisdom personified in the Old Testament is a “type” (or whatever you call it) of the Holy Spirit, so perhaps he was talking about that at the time.
Julia,This red herring has come up before. HS has Feminine characteristics just like it has masculine characteristics. Being Pure spirit leaves the two without gender. God is often pictured in the OT as a mother.
To give divinity a gender like a human being is without logic.In trying to define the Divine in all it’s aspects is difficult at best and is better explained by mystics and theologians…
To be so certain of Our Diety’s gender is to connect with the pantheons of the past where every god could be defined, directed, manipulated…
the heart of God is what we a trying to define-but how do define what is beyond the ken of mortal minds, no matter how brilliant.? We discern God as through a mirror darkly.Is there any true way to completely understand God and the Trinity?.
We anthropomorphise not because He is human or thinks like a human or acts human.WE do it for our convenience, for our understanding is limited because we are limited by our flesh.We are cut from the Divine and can only interpret what has been given us via tradition and scripture.But it is still imperfect knowledge of a God we perceive with the eyes of mortality.
I had the same thought.As improbable as it sounds, I think someone is mixing up Scott Hahn with Andrew Greeley.![]()
I assume you mean Christ, but I’m going to need a citation for that. If Wisdom is Christ, and Wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, does that mean that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to give Jesus?JPII said that OT Wisdom = “Chist.”
Referring to the Holy Spirit as ‘HS’ and as ‘it’ is very offensive. Sacred infallible Tradition has always referred to God as He, and to each Person of the Trinity as He. Jesus used the pronoun ‘He’ when referring to the Father and the Spirit. The Catholic Faith as alwaye referred to God as He, and to the Father, Son, and Spirit each as He.HS has Feminine characteristics just like it has masculine characteristics. Being Pure spirit leaves the two without gender. God is often pictured in the OT as a mother.
To give divinity a gender like a human being is without logic.
No, He didn’t. Look at Matt 10:20. He refers to the Spirit as neuter. Matt 12:31-32 again refers to the Spirit as neuter. Likewise in 22:43, 28:19, Mk 3:29, 12:36, 13:11, 11:13 (though one ms has a non-word in place of the pronoun), 12:10-12, 23:46 (possibly), Jn 1:33, Jn 3:5-8, 3:34, 4:23, 6:63, 14:17 (though p66 and a corrector of Codex Sinaitiucus have masculine pronouns in this verse).Jesus used the pronoun ‘He’ when referring to the Father and the Spirit.
I’m not sure where God is referred to as motherly, and I would be suspicious of any such statement, so I’d like to see some evidence for that, as well.The Catholic Faith as alwaye referred to God as He, and to the Father, Son, and Spirit each as He.
God is not ‘often pictured in the OT as a mother.’ While a variety of different figures are used to refer to God, He is always called He.
God’s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood, which emphasizes God’s immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. the language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard: no one is father as God is Father.
Jesus taught how often God wished to have ‘taken Israel under wing as would a mother hen, but they would not allow’I’m not sure where God is referred to as motherly,
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That’s not Old Testament, which the person I had replied to said. It may be echoing something in the OT. Let me check.Jesus taught how often God wished to have ‘taken Israel under wing as would a mother hen, but they would not allow’
Matthew 23:37 "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! "
It is.{10:20} Non enim vos estis qui loquimini, sed Spiritus Patris vestri, **qui **loquitur in vobis.
{10:20} For it is not you who will be speaking, but the Spirit of your Father, who will speak in you.
The word ‘qui’ is masculine, not neuter. Even if the word is neuter in Greek
I’m ready to talk doctrine. I’ll ask you again, do you believe that the following statements are appropriate?that is merely due to the grammatical gender (or lack thereof) of the word ‘who’. Other posters on this topic are also pointing out grammar, not doctrine.
God’s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood, which emphasizes God’s immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature.
He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard: no one is father as God is Father.
I’m ready to talk doctrine. I’ll ask you again, do you believe that the following statements are appropriate?
God’s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood, which emphasizes God’s immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature.
Andrewagill, I don’t have any problem with these statements, should we?He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard: no one is father as God is Father.
Ruach is a feminine noun. Also, the words, 'eloah [singular] and 'elohim [plural] are feminine. And the word for the Divine Presence, Shekhinah, is also feminine.Hahn’s teaching on a number of different topics of faith and morals is not orthodox.
Concerning use of the feminine to refer to the Holy Spirit:
“4/4. Similarly, in keeping with the Church’s tradition, the feminine and neuter pronouns are not to be used to refer to the person of the Holy Spirit.”
The 1997 Vatican Norms for Translation of Biblical Texts
bible-researcher.com/vatican-norms.html
Well, I’m sure to have no allies after this.Ruach is a feminine noun. Also, the words, 'eloah [singular] and 'elohim [plural] are feminine. And the word for the Divine Presence, Shekhinah, is also feminine.
Whoa!That statement is false. You can also remind Father Serpa that in Hebrew the pronoun will match the noun in gender, and so if the noun is feminine, so will the pronoun be feminine. Father Serpa is so ignorant here that he fails to appreciate that the Holy Spirit is always referred to by use of the feminine in the Tanakh.
I thought El Shaddai was imported from another language.Sorry, almost forgot. El Shaddai. In Hebrew, shad means breast. So God nurtures and suckles. And so no coincidence that God first reveals the name, El Shaddai, to Abraham when he speaks of multiplying Abraham’s descendants into a whole nation. See also Jacob’s blessing at Genesis 49:25.
I’m sorry, what do you mean to imply? That God created man as an instrument of destruction? Even if that were the case, the verses you cite don’t have anything to do with an explicit agency of death.Almost forgot again, but God did not establish patriarchy. Men did that all on their own. God then simply chose to work within the screwed up system we had created for ourselves. You might otherwise do well to consider the implication of Genesis 3:19-20. Male (adam) = death. Female (eve) = life.
But in the canonical book of Ecclesiasticus, we are reminded thatAlmost forgot again, but God did not establish patriarchy. Men did that all on their own. God then simply chose to work within the screwed up system we had created for ourselves. You might otherwise do well to consider the implication of Genesis 3:19-20. Male (adam) = death. Female (eve) = life.
From a woman sin had its beginning,
and because of her we all die. (Sirach 25:24 nrsv)
Excellent post, especially the bolded above.{10:20} Non enim vos estis qui loquimini, sed Spiritus Patris vestri, **qui **loquitur in vobis.
{10:20} For it is not you who will be speaking, but the Spirit of your Father, who will speak in you.
The word ‘qui’ is masculine, not neuter. Even if the word is neuter in Greek, that is merely due to the grammatical gender (or lack thereof) of the word ‘who’. Other posters on this topic are also pointing out grammar, not doctrine.
Jesus never referred to the Holy Spirit as She. He could easily have done so, if this were a truth about God, but He did not. The fact that certain words have a grammatical gender is not equivalent to Jesus teaching that the Holy Spirit is aptly referred to as feminine or neuter.
Similarly, Jesus could have appointed women as Apostles, if He wanted the Church to have women priests, but He did not.
“…no one is father as God is Father.”
All that is good in Creation, including masculinity and femininity, are from God who is the Source of all Goodness. But this does not imply that God is just as fittingly called He or She, nor that God has male and female characteristics.
Creation is like God, but God is not like His Creation. God is truly and absolutely simple, so that the good qualities found in Creation are not found in God in the same way, as qualities or characteristics. So God does not have characteristics or qualities at all. Everything that is true about God is His very Nature, and His Nature is absolutely simple.
God is fittingly called He, and all Three Persons are each fittingly called He, because God gave humanity a certain order, such that the Church would be led by ordained men, and such that a family would have the man as the head. God ordained that males would have certain roles of leadership not given to females. This relationship between male and female roles is a reflection of the relationship between God and Creation. And since God is the head and leader of all Creation, God is most fittingly called He, and not She.
Also Sacred Tradition has always called God, in all Three Persons, by male pronouns.