Scott Hahn says that Ham (Cham) can be interpreted as having had sex with

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I’m reading the Jewish torah commentary on ‘Genesis’ by Sarna- his take is that there are a lot of innuendos and hints in these passages but nothing solid. Why? because something very unpleasant must have happened that the redactors were leery to air.- .So one unpleasant guess is probably is good as another:) -it is also an etiological tale.“Canaan was cursed from the beginning- depraved from the beginning-so when the Hebrews conquered the land of Canaan we taking it over for the better”. 🙂
 
rcjones said:
I’ll have to remember that. Thanks.

Voting for your own posts makes them more true…

😉
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😃 I wasnt voting for my own post, I didnt invent or discover anything here. People like Scott Hahn (and probably others before him) already presented such information and I think it is pretty solid. The two key points (which people like Hahn already made) are that first of all the Bible explicitly says what “father’s nakedness” means (which includes the mother’s nakedness) and second of all there is a “grandchild” mentioned in the context of the account which makes no sense if it alluded to sodomy or even just seeing someone naked.
 
Ge 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered <01540> within his tent.

01540 hlg galah gaw-law’

AV-uncover 34, discover 29, captive 28, carry away 22, reveal 16, open 12, captivity 11, shew 9, remove 6, appear 3, misc 18; 188
  1. to uncover, remove
    1a) (Qal)
    1a1) to uncover
    1a2) to remove, depart
    1a3) to go into exile
Notice that this verse doesn’t say ‘naked’. It says ‘uncovered’. The word also means ‘exiled’ and is used of Israel’s exile, and is certainly a good allusion to Christ’s exile ‘outside the camp’, etc.

Christ is the vine, and his blood is the wine. Since Noah is a shadow of Christ, this part of the story tells how Christ was made to be sin and exiled. Previously we had seen Noah’s obedience to God, just as Christ ‘knew no sin’.

After the resurrection, (Noah was asleep, which is also an illusion to death) although he had provided salvation for all men, he judged some men because the prefer that he was naked and exiled.

The homosexual references at Sodom and also in the story of the Levite and his concubine also refer to men wanting to know Christ as a man. As long as Christ is a man, they don’t have to be obedient to him as God. It is word play and double entendre in the shadows.

In the literal, we don’t know exactly what went on. But in the shadows, it is a picture of Christ being made to be sin and being exiled and then becoming judge after the resurrection. You miss the picture of Christ if you focus on the earthly.
 
Genesis is written in a peculiar way. It seems that the stories are worded in a way that evil has to be uncovered in the story and assigning blame is carefully avoided.

A few times it is mentioned in the bible how women seduce the hebrew men. These were insidious manipulations meant to cause deep harm.

In the OT the actions of Phinehas reveal the gravity of the incident.

In Revelation there is no ambiguity as to blame when Jesus mentions Balaam and Baraak as guilty parties.

Yet in Genesis Chapter 6 the first and most harmfull of these events occured and it’s written in a way that the the party that fell to temptation were the only guilty party . If the accounting to God from Adam had been similar Adam would have said " I took the apple and I did eat of it’

My point is that I believe it very consistent for the way Genesis is written for the act of incest to be communicated as a name but otherwise be ambiguous.
 
Now you have made an observation that deeper than you imagine.
A few times it is mentioned in the bible how women seduce the hebrew men.
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Almost every woman in the Bible helps build the prostitute-virgin bride theme in riddle and word-play.

Rebekah was a virtuous woman. But in word play it says the servant “took” her and the word also means “married”. And when she saw Isaac she covered herself, with a subtle insinuation that she was uncovered with the servant. Sao although she is the virgin bride, she is tainted with the hint of prostitution.

Sometimes the theme is produced with a pair of woman, one playing the harlot and the other the bride. So it is with Leah and Rachel. Leah sneaks into the bedchamber of Rachel.

Can you name a woman who doesn’t fit this pattern theme, and can you imagine what the theme means?

Remember, it is word play. If I remember right, Gomer’s son was named “God sows” as a hint of the virgin birth, though she was a harlot.

Good luck 😉
 
rcjones said:
Now you have made an observation that deeper than you imagine.

Almost every woman in the Bible helps build the prostitute-virgin bride theme in riddle and word-play.

Rebekah was a virtuous woman. But in word play it says the servant “took” her and the word also means “married”. And when she saw Isaac she covered herself, with a subtle insinuation that she was uncovered with the servant. Sao although she is the virgin bride, she is tainted with the hint of prostitution.

Sometimes the theme is produced with a pair of woman, one playing the harlot and the other the bride. So it is with Leah and Rachel. Leah sneaks into the bedchamber of Rachel.

Can you name a woman who doesn’t fit this pattern theme, and can you imagine what the theme means?

Remember, it is word play. If I remember right, Gomer’s son was named “God sows” as a hint of the virgin birth, though she was a harlot.

Good luck 😉
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God shared His trial in a special way with Hosea. Adam and Eve broke the first covenant. They broke the Matrimonial Bond. God married a prostitute. I think it is in Jeremiah a passage (PP) God speaking: “When I first saw you you werer laying there in your blood”" Hosea lives the painfull struggle God has with man with his own wife Gomer. God’s people begin as a prostitute and become a spotless bride ???

I don’t think Eve fits thwe pattern although she originated it. Even the Virgin Mary will be a virgin bride but appear as a prostitute without Joseph.

Tghat’s the best I can do:p
 
You did very well. I don’t know if I have them all yet.

Eve
B.Obvious P. Adam chose the woman who fell because of lust.

Ruth
Slept with Boaz

Rahab
Made the mother of the promise

Tamar
Played the harlot, Judah told there was no prostitute here. She received bracelets indicating she was not unclean, and saif to be more righteous than Judah

Hagar - Sarah as a pair

Sarah alone was taken by the kings when she was married to Abram

Rebekah, mentioned earlier

Leah - Rachel as a pair

Israel - Church as a pair

With Samson, the woman at Timnath and Delilah as a pair

Bathsheba is called Uriah’s wife as the prostitute and Bathsheba when she bears Solomon

Vashti and Ester as a pair

Gilead fathered Japhthah with a prostitute, and also had a wife. The two women together. Japhthah is a shadow of Christ

Gomer means ‘complete’ as well as her first son being named ‘God sows’ as a hint of the virgin birth.

And as you mentioned, Mary

But how 'bout Mystery Babylon?

The pattern is so well established, that there must be a reason for it.

In other shadows, when there are two things associated together, one is earthly and one is heavenly.

The apparent meaning is that Christ, as many of the sons of the PB, was born of the flesh (prostitute) and then marries the Spiritual (bride). That may be interpreted slightly differently by various groups, but the basic meaning is there.

In my take on it, Mystery Babylon is the saved of God who are still in the flesh. We must put off the flesh, kill the flesh, come out of the flesh, etc. in the end, just as Christ also had to put his flesh to death.

If you like that riddle, have you considered the three women at the well?
 
rcjones said:
In my take on it, Mystery Babylon is the saved of God who are still in the flesh. We must put off the flesh, kill the flesh, come out of the flesh, etc. in the end, just as Christ also had to put his flesh to death.

If you like that riddle, have you considered the three women at the well?
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I agree, and this may be unpopular but I see the Church as mystery babylon and the spotless bride. She is born of the Jerusalem Jesus accused of having all the blood of all the prophets on her hands (which is a kind of code phrase for the prostitute) and then presented in the end as spotless.

The three women at the well…hmmmm…what’s the riddle?
 
NotWorthy said:
How about Hannah and Ruth?
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I mentioned Ruth…

But Hannah and Peninnah are a pair. I haven’t found the taint yet, but it brings up another commonality with the PB. Usually the bride waits a long time to have children.

With these two Peninnah has children and Hannah tarries. I fully expect to see the taint in Peninnah somewhere.

This may get way off track but there are numerous double entendres in the story of Samuel. "When God remembered “Grace” she had a son. Hannah means ‘grace’. And when God remembered grace Christ was born.

Hannah loaned Samuel (“My name is God”) to the temple.
Israel did not receive grace through the temple, only the promise or loan of grace to be fulfilled in Christ.

Also garment mean works goings all the way back to the fig leaves. Hannah made a coat every year and gave it to Samuel. This is symbolized Israel casting their sinful works upon Christ year after year through the sacrifices of the animals.
 
Benadam said:
The three women at the well…hmmmm…what’s the riddle?
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Daniel had to uncover the dream before he deciphered it. We must do the same with the riddles.

Rebekah is the first woman at the well. The Father chose her and his servant gathered her to the son.

Rachel is the second woman at the well. The son “wooed” her with a kiss. This is the Son calling his bride.

The third woman is the one Jesus met at Sychar.

And here are the hints to the riddle:

The first and second were virtuous women with the taint of the harlot. The third is a harlot.

The first is the Father ‘choosing’ the bride. The Second the Son is calling the bride.

What is the riddle and what is the answer?
 
rcjones said:
I mentioned Ruth…

But Hannah and Peninnah are a pair. I haven’t found the taint yet, but it brings up another commonality with the PB. Usually the bride waits a long time to have children.

With these two Peninnah has children and Hannah tarries. I fully expect to see the taint in Peninnah somewhere.

This may get way off track but there are numerous double entendres in the story of Samuel. "When God remembered “Grace” she had a son. Hannah means ‘grace’. And when God remembered grace Christ was born.

Hannah loaned Samuel (“My name is God”) to the temple.
Israel did not receive grace through the temple, only the promise or loan of grace to be fulfilled in Christ.

Also garment mean works goings all the way back to the fig leaves. Hannah made a coat every year and gave it to Samuel. This is symbolized Israel casting their sinful works upon Christ year after year through the sacrifices of the animals.
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Hannah is thought to be drunk in Eli’s chamber…immediately after that she goes home and conceives
 
Benadam said:
Hannah is thought to be drunk in Eli’s chamber…immediately after that she goes home and conceives
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Yep, but since Pentecost, drunkenness is the double entendre for the Holy Spirit. Oops, I just gave away the three women at the well.

Sychar also means intoxicated.

Hannah’s ‘conception’ in ‘drunkenness’ represents conception by the Holy Spirit.

I think you’re right, she was with Eli, not her husband, which is the taint.

When Jesus met the woman at Sychar, he was not looking for a bride, but the Holy Spirit 'gathered her into the church, making her the bride.

The Father, chooses, the son calls, and the Holy Spirit gathers the church.

Now go back to the wells. We have our minds renewed by the washing of the word. So what’s in the well?

And who is the word that was ‘buried underground’ like the well water, and covered with a stone?

And what was the difference between the actions of Rebekah and Rachel, and the harlot at the well?
 
rcjones said:
Ge 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered <01540> within his tent.

01540 hlg galah gaw-law’

AV-uncover 34, discover 29, captive 28, carry away 22, reveal 16, open 12, captivity 11, shew 9, remove 6, appear 3, misc 18; 188
  1. to uncover, remove
    1a) (Qal)
    1a1) to uncover
    1a2) to remove, depart
    1a3) to go into exile
    Notice that this verse doesn’t say ‘naked’. It says ‘uncovered’. The word also means ‘exiled’ and is used of Israel’s exile, and is certainly a good allusion to Christ’s exile ‘outside the camp’, etc.
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I think Scott Hahn was not referring to Geneis 9:21, but 9:22
“And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.”

The Greek word is:
`ervah
  1. nakedness, nudity, shame, pudenda
a) pudenda (implying shameful exposure)

b) nakedness of a thing, indecency, improper behaviour

c) exposed, undefended (fig.)
 
I am sure you are correct, which does not negate anything I have proposed. The first mention, is that he was uncovered and sets the stage for all that follows.

My main point is that while some enjoy finding incest and sodomy, I prefer to see Christ in the scriptures and have been demonstrating how to do that.
 
rcjones said:
I am sure you are correct, which does not negate anything I have proposed. The first mention, is that he was uncovered and sets the stage for all that follows.

My main point is that while some enjoy finding incest and sodomy, I prefer to see Christ in the scriptures and have been demonstrating how to do that.
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True, but there are many layers of meaning is scripture, and what Scott Hahn was pointing to here was taken from his Catholic covenant theology which can be found in his series “Our Fathers Plan” where he goes through the entire bible to show how it led to Jesus and his church.

His overall view was that the covenants were built upon and expanded on until they led to the worldwide church started by Jesus.
Adam and Eve - a marriage
Noah - a family
Abraham - a tribe
Moses - a nation
David - a kingdom
Jesus - a universal kingdom
 
I doubt that sodomy or incest in this account are pivotal to an understanding of the covenants and the growth of the church, no matter who it is that wants to focus on it.

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
 
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